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fentonpcrackshell (Jun. 09, 2005 @ 11:49a) |

fentonpcrackshell said: <blockquote><hr><a target="_new" href="http://www.fatwallet.com/redirect/bounce.php?http://64.23... (more)

i3ighead (Jun. 10, 2005 @ 12:48a) |

fentonpcrackshell said: <blockquote><hr>[L=FWIW]<br><hr></blockquote><br><br>Google never ceases to impress me.

montreid (Jun. 10, 2005 @ 1:39a) |

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FINALLY <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border=0>

STOP ACCEPTING PayPal. I did

ROUGHT TO YOU BY PAYPAL: THE FAST EASY SAFE WAY TO PAY
***************************************************************

ok, so I was thinking FW Auctions seems more like a melee of selfishness, confusion, and chronic reposts of several main topics rather than what the FW Finance fourm is (which is an actual COMMUNITY of helpful people and threads which strongly discourages reposts.) I want this forum to take a step in the FW Finance direction and create threads that can help sellers understand the eBay/paypal process and give members easy links to point to when a newbie asks a simple question.

This thread is about how to avoid and/or fight Chargebacks and Disputes (from a seller's persepective) once they happen.

...BUT DON'T GET YOUR HOPES UP. WITH RECENT REVISIONS IN THE SELLER PROTECTION POLICY, BUYER PROTECTION PROGRAM, and BUYER COMPLAINT PROCESS IT HAS BECOME NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MAINTAIN A WORRY-FREE, CONFIRMED-ADDRESSES-ONLY SHIPPING POLICY. THERE CAN NEVER BE A STRATEGIC VICTORY OVER SCAMMERS or IDIOTS. EVERY DISPUTE/CHARGEBACK REVOLVES AROUND TACTICS and LUCK.

This thread is going to go through a bunch of revisions and will be highly inadequate at first, but I want it to include:


1. Understanding Paypal: The differences between chargebacks and disputes.
2. Precautions to take BEFORE receiving payment.
3. Precautions to take AFTER receiving payment.
4. Shipment services vs. Paypal Seller Protection Policy terms & conditions.
5. What to do once chargeback and/or dispute is filed against you.
6. What to do if and when you lose a chargeback and/or dispute.

I am far from completely knowledgable and therefore this thing is far from perfect. I'm constantly revising it to better explain the processes and keep them up-to-date with paypal's changing terms. Please feel free to give me suggestions for additions, corrections, or deletions.

BROUGHT TO YOU BY PAYPAL: THE FAST EASY SAFE WAY TO PAY
***************************************************************

1. Understanding Paypal 101

Here are some terms and concepts you should understand and fully comprehend so you can precisely talk about your situations.

**********************************************
First, common acronyms for the newbies.

PP = Paypal
CC = Credit Card
SPP = Seller Protection Policy (LINK)
BPP = Buyer Protection Policy (LINK)
BCP = Buyer Complaint Process (LINK)
POD = Proof of Delivery (more elaborate than just tracking; often entails a signature)
DOA = Dead on Arrival (i.e., item was damaged/non-working)
COD = Collect on Delivery (a/k/a POD, pay on delivery)
USPS = US Postal Service
DC = Delivery Confirmation by USPS (a/k/a USPS DC)
FW = Fatwallet (duh!)
FWF = Fatwallet Finance Forums
AVS = Address Verification System
**********************************************


A. What are the differences between CHARGEBACKS and DISPUTES/COMPLAINTS. (is there a difference?)

Learn the difference. Many members, including seasoned FW and eBay pros, call everything a "chargeback." Learn the difference so you can best understand and describe your situation.

Paypal also takes a stab at explaining the difference (LINK).


CHARGEBACKS: If you paid by credit or debit card and NOT by eCheck, Instant Bank Transfer, or from your PP balance, a buyer has a right as a creditcard holder to dispute any transaction. This is called a CHARGEBACK. A buyer goes through his issuing bank / CC company to do a chargeback. Paypal is not involved when the buyer does a chargeback, yet is the first to feel its powerful effects.

(Side note: You'll notice in your Paypal PAYMENT RECEIVING PREFERENCES, there is a box called "Credit Card Statement Name." Every payment made to you by credit card bears this stamp on the buyer's statement. When a chargeback comes across the wire, this is how PayPal knows who to assign the "blame" too.)

When a buyer performs a chargeback, the credit card company or bank takes away money from Paypal. Paypal, usually within a matter of hours, passes the expense onto the original seller (i.e., YOU!) They put a "hold" on your money and require you submit information proving you met the requirements of their Seller Protection Policy (SPP), which is supposed to protect PP sellers from chargebacks.

A buyer's chargeback window varies from card to card, but it is usually 60-90 days, sometimes as much as 120. The bottomline is that there is no hard and fast rule when it comes to the possibilities of a chargeback. For more information on understanding chargebacks and seeing how successful FWers have been at performing chargebacks, check out this FWF thread (LINK). If you get through the whole thread, you'll have a very good understanding of the scope, range, and power of the chargeback.


DISPUTES/COMPLAINTS: Disputes (or complaints) are like chargebacks because the case and result are the same: Paypal takes your money away because your buyer is unhappy. The difference is that disputes are PP's own in-house version of a chargeback. There are two types of disputes: the Buyer Complaint Process (BCP) and the Buyer Protection Policy (BPP) (differences discussed more below). There is no burden of proof upon the buyer when making the charge. A few clicks of the mouse and your money is on hold for days, often weeks. All the burden rests on the seller to prove that he followed PP's SPP. Instantly upon the filing of a dispute, PP freezes your account for the total value of the transaction and requires you to submit within 7 days electronic proof of delivery following PP's SPP.

The window of opportunity for a buyer to file and dispute/complaint is 45 days after PAYMENT. (NOT 45 days after the date your auction closed.) NOTE: This is a recent change in PP TOS. Previous BPP/BCP policy stipulated 30 days from Payment to file.



B. What are the differences between a Buyer's Complaint and Buyer Protection Policy claim?

The short answer for eBay sellers is "NOT VERY MUCH." Paypal's two in-house buyer security policies are the BCP and BPP. Until recently, there was (at least when you really studied it) a somewhat clear distinction between the two. BCP was the most basic buyer security policy that protected them ONLY from the danger of never receiving their merchandise. Quality of Goods disputes were NOT covered by BCP. If you received an item, but were unhappy with its quality, BCP would not help you. However, BPP would. BPP is basically BCP plus a quality of merchandise protection kicker. If you never received your goods, you could claim under BCP *or* BPP. If you received but weren't happy with what you received, BPP was your answer.

As discussed below, a seller can actually OPT-OUT (see below) of giving his buyers BPP. However, there is no way to opt out of BCP. It is a baseline default protection scheme that transcends everything else. Simply put, sellers, when called upon, must always be able to prove they shipped something, anything to the seller's confirmed address.

But, BCP was never really a problem for a responsible and sane seller. Get a tracking # on every package. Get a signature on items valued at 250 or more. Heck, ship a brick in lieu of a laptop to the seller... just don't forget the tracking and sig requirement to the confirmed address. BPP was always the problem. Its really that nasty "quality of merchandise" policy kicker. But a smart seller would opt out and, short of a CC chargeback, be able to avoid this pitfall. BUT NOT ANYMORE...

In January 2005, Paypal added Quality of Merchandise priviledges to the BCP for all eBay transactions. So now every eBay seller has to worry about getting hit with a Quality of Merchandise BCP dispute. Basically, there is no meaningful difference between BCP and BPP anymore. As a seller, you can still opt out of BPP but it effectively does nothing because anything a buyer can hit you with under BPP can now be done with your standard Buyer's Complaint.

So, to sum it all up, BCP and BPP are now almost indistinguishable in their effect on eBay sellers. The only real difference between them is on transactions which occur outside the bounds of eBay. For example, you sell me a widget on eBay for $50.00. I receive it and am unhappy with its condition. You get tagged with a BCP or BPP complaint on quality of goods, my choice. HOWEVER, if you sell me that same widget on Craigslist and I can only file BPP on you. Therefore its still better to be opted out of BPP, but not much better.



C. What are the differences between a PP account being "VERIFIED" and being "CONFIRMED". (is there a difference?)

PP TOPIC: What does it mean to be a Verified member of PayPal?

Excerpt: These verification processes are secure and easy ways for PayPal to gain additional proof of a member's identity in conjunction with our own authentication methods, and increases the security of our payment network for everyone.


People often (erroneously) use these terms interchangably. For example:

"But I shipped that $1200 laptop to his VERIFIED address!" or "I only accept payments from CONFIRMED accounts."

VERIFICATION: is a direct result of linking your BANK ACCOUNT to your Paypal account. When you add your bank account, Paypal sends two small credits to your account, which when posted to your bank account, serve as a way of verifying you are the owner of the account. By giving the amounts of these two charges back to Paypal, you become "VERIFIED." Paypal tries to make a big production out of getting people to verify. They have this seal and encourage you to put it in your auctions like it really means something. Ultimately, verification means nothing because verified Paypal accounts can be stolen just like non-verified ones. As a seller, I generally IGNORE a buyer's verification status. BOTTOM LINE: Seller protection and verification have NOTHING to do with each other. Therefore, its best to put little emphasis on this feature of a buyer's account.




CONFIRMATION: is what Paypal does to "street addresses". A street address is just any random address you might ever want to give as a shipping address. Street addresses come in two varieties. CONFIRMED and UNCONFIRMED. They are, by default, unconfirmed until you give Paypal a credit card which corresponds to your street address.

Every credit card you own is linked to a particular address, i.e. the address at which you receive your statements (the "billing address"). A prerequiste to opening a Paypal account is having a credit card. When you add a credit card to paypal, you are required to give the billing address of the card. If you give it the wrong billing address, a processing system known as AVS (read it) will reject the card. The AVS links your CC# to your billing address allowing retailers to rest assured that even if the card is stolen, they are shipping the goods to the address on file ...if they choose to ship to your AVS approved address.

So, when you want to confirm a generic, unconfirmed street address, you go into the STREET ADDRESSES section of your PROFILE settings. Then you select the address and click the CONFIRM button. You are then prompted to enter a credit card (screenshot) which has as the BILLING ADDRESS the particular "street address" you are attempting to confirm. Once you have done this, the verification will either succeed or not. If not, you can try again.

A quirk in the system I have found is that you can enter ANY address you want so long as the ZIP CODE matches the address on your statement. For example, say my CC billing addy is:

53423 St Charles
Little Rock, AR 72211

I can take that particular card in PayPal and add the address:

13500 Chenal Parkway
Little Rock, AR 72211

AND PAYPAL WILL CONFIRM IT!

Paypal claims to have AVS, but AVS is supposed to match street number AND zip. PayPal is just matching zip. So a person with a stolen CC can setup shop in the same zip code (like a Mail Boxes Etc, or a PO Box at the local PO) and scam away with confirmed address protection. I don't know if this is a problem with AVS or just Paypal's implementation of AVS. But as I understand the AVS premise, it is supposed to match the STREET NUMBER *and* the ZIP CODE of a billing address. Not just the zip.

Of course, its also useful when you want a package shipped to a different address that is in the same zip code.

hey, i've done my fair share of dumping on FW Finance. It maybe a little TOO MUCH community for me. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border=0>

orphanis said: [Q]STOP ACCEPTING PayPal.

Your best protection, right there.

sechs said: [Q]orphanis said: [Q]STOP ACCEPTING PayPal.

Your best protection, right there.

bleach kills AIDS too, but i don't want that in my bloodstream either.

Im getting really tired of paypal. I just might go to the extreame of only taking money orders.


colebert said: [Q]sechs said: [Q]orphanis said: [Q]STOP ACCEPTING PayPal.

Your best protection, right there.

bleach kills AIDS too, but i don't want that in my bloodstream either.

Should have protected yourself in the first place....

How about this one? Withdraw your money as soon as possible?

Folks, I have seen enough posting about not accepting PayPal. As a buyer, I will not bid on items that does not offer PayPal. I'm sure I'm not alone here. As a seller that does not accept PayPal, you will loss bids. And you will sell items at a lower price in the long run. You have to do the math to balance the risk and reward.

That does not mean that I don't think PayPal is evil.

fboyfboy said: [Q]How about this one? Withdraw your money as soon as possible?



Sorry but that's no defense. Paypal can take money out of your checking account that you have on file.

cop said: [Q]Im getting really tired of paypal. I just might go to the extreame of only taking money orders.
Bad thought. Bad, bad thought. Your sales will drop.

colebert said: [Q]REMEMBER!: You can only prove your case by providing ELECTRONIC TRACKING that demonstrates the package was delivered to a PHYSICAL ADDRESS (not just a city, state, and zip code) which MATCHES THE BUYER'S CONFIRMED ADDRESS and links to an INDEPENDENT (from you, the seller) SHIPPER'S website.

That means NO FAXING, NO SCREENSHOTS, and NO SNAIL-MAILING of receipts, delivery confirmation stubs, or the like.
I don't think you are 100% correct here. It never says you can only prove your case through electronic tracking. It just says: [Q]The seller provides reasonable proof of shipment from an independent shipper. The shipment must be trackable online.
So actually I read it as you can send in faxes or whatever as "resonable proof of shipment" and the shipment must be electronically trackable. It never says anywhere that faxes, confirmation emails, etc arn't accepted as resonable proof of shipment.

Everytime I ship something I print out a receipt of shipment. So incase of a chargeback I have the receipt with the physical address as "resonable proof of shipment" and it even shows the tracking number on the receipt for tracking online. I'm pretty sure this would cover it.

They might have done it before. But I believe they can no longer do that because it is illegal.

Sagan411 said: [Q]fboyfboy said: [Q]How about this one? Withdraw your money as soon as possible?



Sorry but that's no defense. Paypal can take money out of your checking account that you have on file.

kevindanielbrown said: [Q]

Everytime I ship something I print out a receipt of shipment. So incase of a chargeback I have the receipt with the physical address as "resonable proof of shipment" and it even shows the tracking number on the receipt for tracking online. I'm pretty sure this would cover it.


Look, this "as i read it stuff" is simply not going to fly. you don't get wiggle room with paypal. they are impenetrable. if you've ever been hit with a chargeback, you know that they say "give us the number." that's it. they don't take faxes, screenshots, etc. It simply doesn't work.

I would suggest that anyone reading that post not listen to anything you said, because you really are just BSing and trying to read between the lines. No offense, but its true.

Don't act like it will work until you've tried it. Because it simply won't. Theres no point in giving the hundreds of lurkers in this forum the feeling they're safe when really they're not.

colebert said: [Q]Look, this "as i read it stuff" is simply not going to fly.
Everything is up to interpretation as you or I read it. Your interpretation is based on how you read it and mine is based on how I read it.

[Q]you don't get wiggle room with paypal. they are impenetrable.
I'm sure there are plenty of problems with paypal and I'm not trying to defend them as a good company. I'm saying if you really read there policy it does not say what you are claiming. Now if they follow there policy or not is up to them.

[Q]if you've ever been hit with a chargeback, you know that they say "give us the number." that's it. they don't take faxes, screenshots, etc. It simply doesn't work.
Have you ever asked to send in a fax? Or just ask for a fax number and send it. Or how about sending an email copy of a receipt? Have they specifically told you they don't accept faxes of receipts? I'm just trying to be thorough cause it sounds to me like you don't ever bother trying to provide more than just a tracking number. Do you ever keep receipts of shipment?

[Q]I would suggest that anyone reading that post not listen to anything you said, because you really are just BSing and trying to read between the lines. No offense, but its true.
Woa... Calm down. I'm simply saying that they never say anywhere that you can only prove shipment by electronic tracking. They say you have to provide resonalbe proof of shipment and it must be trackable online.

[Q]Don't act like it will work until you've tried it. Because it simply won't. Theres no point in giving the hundreds of lurkers in this forum the feeling they're safe when really they're not.
I havn't had to try this and I never claimed that I know for a fact this will work. I said "i'm pretty sure this would cover it" and I do think that if you have an actuall receipt of shipment and tracking information that should cover you. Yes, I guess I could be wrong and again I never claimed to know this for a fact. I'm just trying to cover all my bases and protect myself a little more than just having a tracking number.

Thanks OP. The info is coming right on time.

Does everyone know about the SELLER protection? Not to be confused with the $500, being raised to $1000 buyer protection. Works of calendar year and I am getting $5k in protection. Now just to see if it holds true if and when I need it.

I like this thread and thank colebert for it1

couple more things I would like to see discussed.

selling managers - pros/cons. i see different types and i am looking at eBay selling manager pro, andale and vendio. *anyone use or using them? comments?*

account reps at Paypal or eBay? if u are a certain level of power seller u get a rep. im platinum so i get to call into someone. i also got a paypal rep. both been pretty helpful!

kevindanielbrown said: [Q]colebert said: [Q]Look, this "as i read it stuff" is simply not going to fly.
Everything is up to interpretation as you or I read it. Your interpretation is based on how you read it and mine is based on how I read it.

No, we're not playing the interpretation game here. *You're* playing the interpretation game.

I'm playing the "i've been through two of these situations and know how its done" game.

I'm gonna say it again. Any lurker reading this thread and trying to understand how PP Seller Protection works SHOULD NOT believe anything you're saying. This stuff is real and has real life results. You're treating it like its all theoretical and fudge-able. I'm saying its not and can back up my statement with real life experience dealing with paypal and their "well trained to be poorly trained and unhelpful" reps. Can you?

colbert said: [Q]I'm playing the "i've been through two of these situations and know how its done" game.
[Q]I'm saying its not and can back up my statement with real life experience dealing with paypal and their "well trained to be poorly trained and unhelpful" reps. Can you?
Have you ever asked to send in a fax? Or just ask for a fax number and send it. Or how about sending an email copy of a receipt? Have they specifically told you they don't accept faxes of receipts? I'm just trying to be thorough cause it sounds to me like you don't ever bother trying to provide more than just a tracking number. Do you ever keep receipts of shipment?

Infact the SPP also states "Always retain proof that you honored the payment and shipped the item to the address on the Transaction Details page. If the transaction is disputed, you will be required to provide a copy of this shipment record showing that you shipped to the address found on the Transaction Details page."

Again it seems to me you are just making up this whole notion that electronic tracking is the only method of proving shipment. It even says here to provide a "copy of this shipment record". A tracking number alone is not a copy of shipment record. You might want to print out shipment receipts from now on so you can provide an actual copy of a shipment record.

OMG!1111234 what was is thinking?!? i let 350 dollars of my money go by the boards without lifting a finger.


guess i should try harder next time.

There's some things you flat out can't protect yourself from. I blocked unconfirmed addresses and international addresses and I only accept payment if I've scanned everything. I've opted out of paypal's buyer protection so that buyers can't dispute with paypal. As far as chargebacks...I'm hoping the seller protection policy protects me. It also helps to have a good rep. It's almost always wise to get signature confirmation on items over 250.00.

CrazyDe said: [Q]There's some things you flat out can't protect yourself from. I blocked unconfirmed addresses and international addresses and I only accept payment if I've scanned everything. I've opted out of paypal's buyer protection so that buyers can't dispute with paypal. As far as chargebacks...I'm hoping the seller protection policy protects me. It also helps to have a good rep. It's almost always wise to get signature confirmation on items over 250.00.


Chargebacks are always a problem. Seller protection CLAIMS it helps you avoid chargeback. But then I've seen parts of paypal's website that claims that chargeback are between the buyer and seller, and PP doesn't get involved.

Even moreso of a problem because you can chargeback and a half-eaten ham and cheese sandwich. Quality of merchandise disputes are almost impossible to prove. Which is why REPUTATION on eBay matters.

colebert said: [Q]CrazyDe said: [Q]There's some things you flat out can't protect yourself from. I blocked unconfirmed addresses and international addresses and I only accept payment if I've scanned everything. I've opted out of paypal's buyer protection so that buyers can't dispute with paypal. As far as chargebacks...I'm hoping the seller protection policy protects me. It also helps to have a good rep. It's almost always wise to get signature confirmation on items over 250.00.


Chargebacks are always a problem. Seller protection CLAIMS it helps you avoid chargeback. But then I've seen parts of paypal's website that claims that chargeback are between the buyer and seller, and PP doesn't get involved.

Even moreso of a problem because you can chargeback and a half-eaten ham and cheese sandwich. Quality of merchandise disputes are almost impossible to prove. Which is why REPUTATION on eBay matters.

You don't want paypal to get involved. You just want them not to take your money in a chargeback which should never happen if you follow protection policies.

I've lost a quality of merchandise once and that was due to being part of paypal's buyer protection policy. I'd say I have a fairly good reputation but that's not why I win.

bump for newbs

I dont' know but...uuhh...you've lost that lovin feelin

Nice thread. I just made my first 2 sales on eBay this weekend - will ship one that's been paid tomorrow, so this has been useful. Thanks OP.

Thanks colebert. Lot of experience(chargebacks <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border=0> ) put into that post. I'm trying to sell some stuff this week. These suggestions will be of sure help to me.

Sagan411 said: [Q]
Sorry but that's no defense. Paypal can take money out of your checking account that you have on file.

Does anyone have recent experience with this happening and does the law protect us or not?

Would someone please enlighten us <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif" border=0>

Just wanted to share my experience of paypal freezing $600 in my account, and how I got it back via the SELLER PROTECTION PLAN:

I sold an mpx220 for $600 when they first were released. This was back in the beginning of November. Last week I recieved the dreaded paypal claim. Paypal sent me an email that stated that the $600 is on hold due to "unauthorized funds". I was still able to send and recieve money. Only that amount was on hold, everything else was the same.


I called the buyer, who stated that the phone works great, and he didn't file a claim. After checking his account, he noticed that they took the same amount out of his account as well.

The buyer called paypal, and paypal stated that the BANK of the buyer was disputing the withdrawl, stating that it was unauthorized.

I sent an email to paypal with the pertinent info, especially:

-The statement from the buyer that he was not disputing the claim

-The fact that I shipped to a CONFIRMED address.

-The fact that paypal stated I am eligible for the Seller protection plan

-The Fedex tracking number with signature on delivery

-The amount the item was insured for

-A fedex link showing the buyer's ACTUAL signature, the tracking number, and the date he recieved it.


The next day, I had the funds deposited back into my account, and an email stating that I am covered under the paypal protection policy.

This little episode should go to show you, ALWAYS ship ONLY to CONFIRMED ADDRESSES, NEVER MAKE AN EXCEPTION IF YOU DON'T WANT PAYPAL TO TAKE THE FUNDS AND KEEP THEM.

if it is over $250, ALWAYS HAVE SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION

if and when possible, ship via a company with ONLINE TRACKING, e.g. NOT USPS. I know it's tempting to use priority mail for the small items, but if you want to be truly protected, this is the way to go.

it's just not worth it, you don't want to get burned.

Especially for the small time sellers, all it takes is one major purchase to get disputed to put you out of business.

On a side note:
Be careful when shipping via fedex to canada. This has nothing to do with paypal, but The buyer of another item I sold decided not to pay Fedex for the duties and taxes on an item I shipped to him, and Fedex charged me for it after sending ONE letter to the buyer asking for money. It is in the fedex terms and conditions that the shipper is ultimately responsible for all duties and taxes.





i've updated the FAQ to correct for spelling and gramatical errors. also added screenshots to help find and visualize the areas in paypal and eBay where I recommend changing settings.

Skipping 150 Messages...
fentonpcrackshell said: [Q][L=FWIW]

Google never ceases to impress me.



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