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peacherwu said: 2) If I don't have SPP, I will lose whatever complaint and chargeback within PP and lose the money? If the buyer skips PP and files CC chargeback directly, do I have a chance to win?

If you are not covered by the SPP, you automatically lose any PayPal reversals (INR or SNAD). The SPP is also protection against CC chargebacks. if you are covered by the SPP, PayPal is supposed to fight any chargebacks and if the CC company does allow a chargeback PP is supposed to eat the chargeback with no harm to the seller. If you have no SPP coverage, and the buyer skips PP and goes to his CC company, I'm not sire what will happen. I would think PayPal would ask the seller for any documentation needed (DC/tracking #, etc), and go from there. I highly doubt that PP will go to bat for the seller, though. Likely the chargeback would go through. Also likely is the suspension of the buyer's account for violating the file-with-PP-first rule.

Caveat: I have not experienced a chargeback yet, so can only relay my interpretations of the SPP and what I have read of others' experiences.

Current Paypal Nightmare

Hello Everyone.

I kindly ask for any advice. I have been a Seller on eBay for over 4 years and I am experiencing my first chargeback from Paypal.

First, please know that I have followed everything I thought would protect me and qualify me for Paypal's Seller's Protection Policy:

I Accepted payment from a single PayPal account.
I sold me item using a Verified Business or Premier account
I Shipped to the address on the Transaction Details page ( Confirmed Address & Verified Acct.)
I Retain reasonable proof of delivery that can be tracked ( UPS GROUND Online tracking )
I sold tangible goods ( 1 - PAIR of Breast Forms )

* Guess what - all the above is null and void if the Buyer intiated a chargeback with the reasoning that the merchandise is * not as described *.

This customer who had purchased 1 - PAIR of Breast Forms from me had the breast forms for 15 days in total before shipping it back to me so that the manufacturer can inspect it to confirm if there are any manufacturing defects. This is what this customer claims ( he found small bubbles ). After inspection, we found that the breast forms were already used and was damaged by the customer who applied some type of adhesive along the seams. I immediately contacted the customer about our findings and informed him that the breast forms were being shipped back to him. I never heard from him again.

Now this chargeback. I received an e-mail from Paypal informing me of a chargeback and my funds of $209.90 USD is being frozen until the investigation is completed. I needed to provide proof and evidence that will support my case.

I sent via FAX copies of my e-mail correspondence.. a STATMENT from the manufacturer confirming the findings that there were no manufacturing defects and found damages caused by the customer as well as evident signs of use. This was all sent on July 11, 2005.

I received an e-mail from paypal today, July 19, 2005 stating that my case is not covered by the Seller's Protection Policy and that the money is being withdrawn from my account and will be returned if I win my case. They state they will dispute the chargeback with the buyer's credit card company.

I immediately called Paypal Dispute Resolution Dept. to ask for further explaination. I could not believe what I was told ........ he stated to me that the likelyhood that I will get my money back is very slim. I was very shocked! I asked, and asked...why??? He stated that in cases like this.. it is more likely the credit card company will grant the customer the chargeback.

How can this be??? This customer is trying to return an item he had worn and damaged himself; and had it for 15 days!.. These breast forms cannot be re-sold ... why should I lose $209.90 USD?

The Paypal worker, gave me no advice or help... just to wait until the final judgement of the credit card company which can take up to 75 days!

I just started to cry the moment I hung up. I cannot afford this! My eBay business is there to support my children........ this has never happened to me before.

Why should Paypal have the right to take my money until this investigation is over?

Please, anyone? Does anyone have any advice for me? What other information should I send Paypal to help my case?

Thank you anyone who is kind enought to answer this post.

Jennifer

Welcome to Fatwallet and welcome to Paypal..

How do you do signature confirmation if you use UPS shipping through PayPal. I don't see any options for it. Seems kinda odd that PayPal would provide UPS shipping for eBay and expect you to use signature confirmation for packages over $250, yet don't provide you with an option to do signature confirmation when printing out the label.

I got UPS to send me a roll of those Signature Required stickers, but they don't have any kind of barcode on them, so I don't know if those will work or not...

NFS4 said: How do you do signature confirmation if you use UPS shipping through PayPal. I don't see any options for it. Seems kinda odd that PayPal would provide UPS shipping for eBay and expect you to use signature confirmation for packages over $250, yet don't provide you with an option to do signature confirmation when printing out the label.

I got UPS to send me a roll of those Signature Required stickers, but they don't have any kind of barcode on them, so I don't know if those will work or not...



Short answer is you do not. The PayPal UPS page does not offer this service as an option. I personally find this unbelievable. You need to use UPS Worldship software (Free with a UPS account and runs on your local computer...excellent software) or use the UPS website to do the shipping.

We have sold many items on eBay over the $250 limit for PayPal, and it is required for you to pay for the UPS "Signature Required" or "Adult Signature Required" service. Be aware that this is not free, UPS "Signature Required" costs $2.00 per package and "Adult Signature Required" costs $2.75 per package. Adult requires that the person shows a form of ID to prove age to the driver.

If you save the money, and do not pay for either of these, PayPal will not cover you under SPP if you have a dispute. UPS tracking showing delivery is not good enough. After a couple PayPal disputes we have seen this first hand. Luckily, we use the service on required packages and make it extremely clear in our auctions that we do. I think this helps to cut down on truly fraudulent transactions. Many of them seem to move onto easier pickings.

One of our disputes was a person who said PayPal billed his credit card twice for the same laptop but only showed once on his end. We immediately refunded BOTH of the payments that we received to him. It was pretty obvious that he has messed up. He blamed PayPal, and refused to go through with the transaction but left us positive feedback anyways since he knew it wasn't us.

The second one appeared to be PayPal's fault with a buyers bank account. We received the dispute and asked UPS to hold delivery. They delivered anyways after ignoring three phone calls, eventually saying they were contacting the wrong delivery office. The person got the goods and we ended up calling her. The good thing is that PayPal took under 60 minutes from the time we submitted proof of UPS Signature Delivery to when they emailed us that it was covered under SPP and we were done with it. Buyer ended up following up with PayPal and us anyways. She said the problem was with PayPal billing her the previous month for a small charge that she didn't buy. Her bank had put through the Thousand dollar plus charge from us fine. Took her over a week to get PayPal cleared up on her end. If she was a true scam artist, I doubt she would have given us the time of day, or had a valid phone number listed.

CasualObserver said: NFS4 said: How do you do signature confirmation if you use UPS shipping through PayPal. I don't see any options for it. Seems kinda odd that PayPal would provide UPS shipping for eBay and expect you to use signature confirmation for packages over $250, yet don't provide you with an option to do signature confirmation when printing out the label.

I got UPS to send me a roll of those Signature Required stickers, but they don't have any kind of barcode on them, so I don't know if those will work or not...



Short answer is you do not. The PayPal UPS page does not offer this service as an option. I personally find this unbelievable. You need to use UPS Worldship software (Free with a UPS account and runs on your local computer...excellent software) or use the UPS website to do the shipping.


Yeah, I came to the same conclusion:

http://www.fatwallet.com/t/67/500632/

Hi,
I am a new seller to eBay and i have a couple of question about signature required option and insurance.

(1) Signature required: If i pay by credit card UPS don't allow me to set option for signature required. Do I have to have a UPS account for signature required? What about other Shipping method?

(2) Insurance: Is delaring value same as insurance on UPS and Fedex? Also USPS doesn't allow me to add insurance for more than $200 online. Does it allow on post-office?

Thanks in Advance!

boniam said: Hi,
I am a new seller to eBay and i have a couple of question about signature required option and insurance.

(1) Signature required: If i pay by credit card UPS don't allow me to set option for signature required. Do I have to have a UPS account for signature required? What about other Shipping method?

(2) Insurance: Is delaring value same as insurance on UPS and Fedex? Also USPS doesn't allow me to add insurance for more than $200 online. Does it allow on post-office?

Thanks in Advance!


1) Yes
2) Yes, Yes

Did you read any of my posts? I have been screwed out of just shy of $1700!! I sold an item on eBay, the guy recieved it with no problems. Many weeks later, paypal places a hold for -1700 on my account (no money was in there because I had pulled it all out). THey tell me the guy paid with a stolen credit card. I had his phone and email. I talked to him, he tells me he didnt even pay with a CC but with bank transfer. Talk to paypal again, they tell me they never recieved his money. I call him back, he gives me his banks number and the wire transfer number. I call the bank, and confirm it was recieved by paypal. This is when it got fun. Paypal STOLE the 1700 from my discover card. THEY ARE THIEFS!! I never said they could charge my card, but did anyhow. Next, paypal then told me the buyer filed a cimplaint, and the funds would be released once the buy dropped the complaint. I call the buyer, he insists he never filed a complaint. We formulate an email to paypal and send it with both of us on the email.. Paypal tells both of us the funds are still fradulant.

So I end up forgetting about paypal and filed a charge back to myself through Discover card on July 11th. It still isnt 'final' but Discover tells me there is no reason why I wont win.

Its the craziest thing I have ever heard of with paypal, and rather unfortunate. I have done quite a bit of business with them. I have talked to them on the phone and am given a different response EVERY time I call them.

Be glad you only might lose $209...

Moral: SAY NO TO PAYPAL!!!!

JennifersStash said: Current Paypal Nightmare

Hello Everyone.

I kindly ask for any advice. I have been a Seller on eBay for over 4 years and I am experiencing my first chargeback from Paypal.

First, please know that I have followed everything I thought would protect me and qualify me for Paypal's Seller's Protection Policy:

I Accepted payment from a single PayPal account.
I sold me item using a Verified Business or Premier account
I Shipped to the address on the Transaction Details page ( Confirmed Address & Verified Acct.)
I Retain reasonable proof of delivery that can be tracked ( UPS GROUND Online tracking )
I sold tangible goods ( 1 - PAIR of Breast Forms )

* Guess what - all the above is null and void if the Buyer intiated a chargeback with the reasoning that the merchandise is * not as described *.

This customer who had purchased 1 - PAIR of Breast Forms from me had the breast forms for 15 days in total before shipping it back to me so that the manufacturer can inspect it to confirm if there are any manufacturing defects. This is what this customer claims ( he found small bubbles ). After inspection, we found that the breast forms were already used and was damaged by the customer who applied some type of adhesive along the seams. I immediately contacted the customer about our findings and informed him that the breast forms were being shipped back to him. I never heard from him again.

Now this chargeback. I received an e-mail from Paypal informing me of a chargeback and my funds of $209.90 USD is being frozen until the investigation is completed. I needed to provide proof and evidence that will support my case.

I sent via FAX copies of my e-mail correspondence.. a STATMENT from the manufacturer confirming the findings that there were no manufacturing defects and found damages caused by the customer as well as evident signs of use. This was all sent on July 11, 2005.

I received an e-mail from paypal today, July 19, 2005 stating that my case is not covered by the Seller's Protection Policy and that the money is being withdrawn from my account and will be returned if I win my case. They state they will dispute the chargeback with the buyer's credit card company.

I immediately called Paypal Dispute Resolution Dept. to ask for further explaination. I could not believe what I was told ........ he stated to me that the likelyhood that I will get my money back is very slim. I was very shocked! I asked, and asked...why??? He stated that in cases like this.. it is more likely the credit card company will grant the customer the chargeback.

How can this be??? This customer is trying to return an item he had worn and damaged himself; and had it for 15 days!.. These breast forms cannot be re-sold ... why should I lose $209.90 USD?

The Paypal worker, gave me no advice or help... just to wait until the final judgement of the credit card company which can take up to 75 days!

I just started to cry the moment I hung up. I cannot afford this! My eBay business is there to support my children........ this has never happened to me before.

Why should Paypal have the right to take my money until this investigation is over?

Please, anyone? Does anyone have any advice for me? What other information should I send Paypal to help my case?

Thank you anyone who is kind enought to answer this post.

Jennifer

Need an advice:
Ok...I put a laptop for sale on eBay. There is a BIN option too and I only accept paypal. Then I got following message:

====
Hello,
I want to buy your laptop for my nephew. He live in state IL. If you can post laptop to him today, i will send money immediately. I will need your paypal ID and total price with overnight shipping included if you are realy interested. Let me know your thoughts. Zip code is 60xxx.

Kindest regards,
xxxxxxx
====

The buyer reputation is fine, no negative feedbacks out of 39. Last transaction is in December 2004.

1. Of course, I would like to sell her my laptop. But...since she asked me to send it to her nephew, I assume the address is not a confirmed address, which in turn would void my Paypal SPP. Am I correct?

2. What do you think if I ask her to send me postal money order via Express mail (I'll get it by tomorrow), and once I get it and verify it as original (not fake), I'll pull out my listing and send the laptop to her nephew. Is there any risk involved with this? Is that possible to produce fake postal money order?

Thanks for any advice.

minang said: Need an advice:
Ok...I put a laptop for sale on eBay. There is a BIN option too and I only accept paypal. Then I got following message:

====
Hello,
I want to buy your laptop for my nephew. He live in state IL. If you can post laptop to him today, i will send money immediately. I will need your paypal ID and total price with overnight shipping included if you are realy interested. Let me know your thoughts. Zip code is 60xxx.

Kindest regards,
xxxxxxx
====

The buyer reputation is fine, no negative feedbacks out of 39. Last transaction is in December 2004.

1. Of course, I would like to sell her my laptop. But...since she asked me to send it to her nephew, I assume the address is not a confirmed address, which in turn would void my Paypal SPP. Am I correct?

2. What do you think if I ask her to send me postal money order via Express mail (I'll get it by tomorrow), and once I get it and verify it as original (not fake), I'll pull out my listing and send the laptop to her nephew. Is there any risk involved with this? Is that possible to produce fake postal money order?

Thanks for any advice.


Firstly, there is a thread under this about scams...

I see the words kindest regards in there...

It is possible to fake postal money orders, or cashiers checks. If you take the MO to a post office, they can usually tell right away. Other money orders are iffy.

BidPay is a find option here, but don't ship untill you have CASH in HAND, I don't care what the e-mail tells you.

TheBigDon said: minang said: Need an advice:
Ok...I put a laptop for sale on eBay. There is a BIN option too and I only accept paypal. Then I got following message:

====
Hello,
I want to buy your laptop for my nephew. He live in state IL. If you can post laptop to him today, i will send money immediately. I will need your paypal ID and total price with overnight shipping included if you are realy interested. Let me know your thoughts. Zip code is 60xxx.

Kindest regards,
xxxxxxx
====

The buyer reputation is fine, no negative feedbacks out of 39. Last transaction is in December 2004.

1. Of course, I would like to sell her my laptop. But...since she asked me to send it to her nephew, I assume the address is not a confirmed address, which in turn would void my Paypal SPP. Am I correct?

2. What do you think if I ask her to send me postal money order via Express mail (I'll get it by tomorrow), and once I get it and verify it as original (not fake), I'll pull out my listing and send the laptop to her nephew. Is there any risk involved with this? Is that possible to produce fake postal money order?

Thanks for any advice.


Firstly, there is a thread under this about scams...

I see the words kindest regards in there...

It is possible to fake postal money orders, or cashiers checks. If you take the MO to a post office, they can usually tell right away. Other money orders are iffy.

BidPay is a find option here, but don't ship untill you have CASH in HAND, I don't care what the e-mail tells you.

Yes do Bidpay directly to your bank account, or if you want the check, wait until you get it. Bit U would tell them to send a USPS money order.

I have a question:

If I sell multiple items in one auction and accept paypal payment, can I ship them individually ?
Say, I sold computer, monitor and printer. Ship them individually with proper shipping options and tracking numbers. Am I covered under SPP?

I don't see anything here at FW or paypal website. Sound good to me, just want to confirm by the PROs.

hot2004 said: I have a question:

If I sell multiple items in one auction and accept paypal payment, can I ship them individually ?
Say, I sold computer, monitor and printer. Ship them individually with proper shipping options and tracking numbers. Am I covered under SPP?

I don't see anything here at FW or paypal website. Sound good to me, just want to confirm by the PROs.

One payment per shipment. If you accept three payments, you need three tracking numbers. if you accept one payment, you need one tracking number.

I believe UPS (and probably FedEx and DHL) allow you to create a shipment or manifest or somesuch number under which several boxes are shipped. If that number is trackable online, that should satisfy PayPal.

Jennifer, PayPal will not protect you in SNAD claims. Even though the buyer is supposed to get independent opinion (in this case you have the manufacturer's opinion), they don't care for you, the seller. Your options are very limited:

- take the buyer to small claims court. Depending on the state the buyer's in, your state's judgement may or may not be enforceable. Still, if the buyer gets a notice in the mail, it may scare her enough to drop the chargeback. It is very unlikely that the buyer will come to your place of residence to defend herself and you'll win by default.

- take PayPal to small claims court. Look around on the web for advice on how to do this. If I recall correctly, several people have won just in cases like this. Of course, it is quite likely that you won't be able to use PayPal ever again, whether you win or not.

- check if it is feasible to take the buyer to a collection agency. Most CA's don't deal with individual persons like you, but you may luck out. But remember that the collection agency will get 30%-50% cut from the money they recover.

I just thought I'd let you guys know that Japanese addresses can be confirmed as well. Just got a payment from a confirmed Japanese address.

yonatan said: I just thought I'd let you guys know that Japanese addresses can be confirmed as well. Just got a payment from a confirmed Japanese address.
Cool, that's good to know. I'll update the OP with that info. Keep in mind, though, that just because some Japanese addresses can be confirmed shipment there is still not SPP-eligible.

I just checked again and apparently the e-mail I got says the address is confirmed but the PayPal page says it isn't confirmed. I guess it isn't confirmed then.

ArgoNavis said: Jennifer, PayPal will not protect you in SNAD claims. Even though the buyer is supposed to get independent opinion (in this case you have the manufacturer's opinion), they don't care for you, the seller. Your options are very limited:

- take the buyer to small claims court. Depending on the state the buyer's in, your state's judgement may or may not be enforceable. Still, if the buyer gets a notice in the mail, it may scare her enough to drop the chargeback. It is very unlikely that the buyer will come to your place of residence to defend herself and you'll win by default.

- take PayPal to small claims court. Look around on the web for advice on how to do this. If I recall correctly, several people have won just in cases like this. Of course, it is quite likely that you won't be able to use PayPal ever again, whether you win or not.

- check if it is feasible to take the buyer to a collection agency. Most CA's don't deal with individual persons like you, but you may luck out. But remember that the collection agency will get 30%-50% cut from the money they recover.


Hi Argo!

Thank you for your post. Well, today was the day .. I received the final e-mail from Paypal that tells me how the chargeback dispute went.

Supposedly Paypal have done all they could - despite all of the PROOF I sent... the manufacturers statement saying that the item was indeed used and damaged... dispite the fact this customer used it for 15 days ......... I LOST!

I can't believe it .... I cannot believe that someone can actually win when all the evidence was against them. It is truly not fair.

Well my dear friends.. and fellow Sellers who were kind enough to share their own nightmare with me... you were right ...... Paypal does not care.

Sorry to hear that.

Incidentally, I guess it's a pretty messed-up guy who buys breast forms in the first place.

Once buyer submits a feedback and acknowledges the receipt of the item can we use as another proof. Will paypal considers this?

kkkkkk said: Once buyer submits a feedback and acknowledges the receipt of the item can we use as another proof. Will paypal considers this?
PayPal might, but I wouldn't count on it. You need to have that online trackable proof of delivery, and a signature if necessary.

how come no one mentions Fedex .I use fedex most of the time any problems I should know about?

dieseldavid said: how come no one mentions Fedex .I use fedex most of the time any problems I should know about?
FedEx is mentioned, both in this thread and in others. You might do a search on "FedEx" and get more info.

I just want to bring attention to the other side of the story: buying with Paypal.

For one thing, this thread has not covered much about Paypal complaint process; for another, there seems to be some misunderstanding in this board (or I could be wrong) about the process.

Paypal has Buyer Complaint Process (BCP) as a built-in protection program for Paypal payments. BCP USED to cover INR claims but not SNAD claims. However, since January 2005, Paypal has extended BCP to cover SNAD on eBay items as well.

For eBay items, Paypal offers sellers a program called Buyer Protection (BPP), which covers both INR and SNAD cases. The enrollment is AUTOMATIC as soon as a seller meets certain criteria, and you have to call to opt out.

IT's not so much that the buyer has a choice either to file with BCP or BPP for eBay items. There is only one complaint process and the claim will be taken over to BPP automatically if the item has BPP, otherwise it'll be a BCP claim.

Since the careless buyers won't notice if an eBay item has BPP or not, it used to be advantageous to opt out BPP, so that buyer can file INR claims only. But Paypal has defeated the strategy by January's extension.

To sum up, for eBay sellers it makes no difference if you are in or out of BPP; for non-eBay sellers it makes no difference either.

And quite contrary to common understanding, selling off eBay has slightly MORE protection for seller since buyer cannot file SNAD with Paypal. However, seller still lose the money if buyer file SNAD via cc chargeback.
See subsection 2.b.ii of SPP policy.

Paypal Buyer Complaint Process
Paypal Buyer Protection
Paypal Seller Protection Policy

This might deserve its own thread but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to maintain. tlaxon you are welcome to do so if you wish.

peacherwu said: I just want to bring attention to the other side of the story: buying with Paypal.

<<lots of good info snipped>>

This might deserve its own thread but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to maintain. tlaxon you are welcome to do so if you wish.

I'm willing to write a FAQ about how to resolve problems as a buyer, focusing on handling PayPal and eBay's various complaint processes.. Peacherwu, if you don't mind, I'll steal the info you posted above and incorporate it (with proper credit, of course) into the new FAQ.

If anyone has suggestions for what they want to see in the FAQ, or anything at all to add to it, please PM me. I'll try to get the first version up sometime this weekend.

troutmd said: Did you read any of my posts? I have been screwed out of just shy of $1700!! I sold an item on eBay, the guy recieved it with no problems. Many weeks later, paypal places a hold for -1700 on my account (no money was in there because I had pulled it all out). THey tell me the guy paid with a stolen credit card. I had his phone and email. I talked to him, he tells me he didnt even pay with a CC but with bank transfer. Talk to paypal again, they tell me they never recieved his money. I call him back, he gives me his banks number and the wire transfer number. I call the bank, and confirm it was recieved by paypal. This is when it got fun. Paypal STOLE the 1700 from my discover card. THEY ARE THIEFS!! I never said they could charge my card, but did anyhow. Next, paypal then told me the buyer filed a cimplaint, and the funds would be released once the buy dropped the complaint. I call the buyer, he insists he never filed a complaint. We formulate an email to paypal and send it with both of us on the email.. Paypal tells both of us the funds are still fradulant.

So I end up forgetting about paypal and filed a charge back to myself through Discover card on July 11th. It still isnt 'final' but Discover tells me there is no reason why I wont win.

Its the craziest thing I have ever heard of with paypal, and rather unfortunate. I have done quite a bit of business with them. I have talked to them on the phone and am given a different response EVERY time I call them.

Be glad you only might lose $209...

Moral: SAY NO TO PAYPAL!!!!



UPDATE: Well, discover card finally stuck it to them. Discover called me and said that paypal sent them a packet of information that was not even close to showing the charges were legit. Therefor, discover has taken the money back from them. Discover did tell me they have like 30 more days to prove the charges were correct, but they said companies never send more than one packet of information.

What I get a kick out of is when I log into paypal, it tells me my account is limited and that I need to verify all this stuff right away. The main thing to verify is that the charge made to discover card was legit.

Yeah right paypal, get a life! And I am glad I was able to screw you back out of the money.

I have a potential buyer from Puerto Rico who insists on paying via paypal. Paypal says PR is covered in SPP if address is confirmed, so does the FAQ. Anything I should be on the look out for?

peacherwu said: I just want to bring attention to the other side of the story: buying with Paypal.

For one thing, this thread has not covered much about Paypal complaint process; for another, there seems to be some misunderstanding in this board (or I could be wrong) about the process.

Paypal has Buyer Complaint Process (BCP) as a built-in protection program for Paypal payments. BCP USED to cover INR claims but not SNAD claims. However, since January 2005, Paypal has extended BCP to cover SNAD on eBay items as well.

For eBay items, Paypal offers sellers a program called Buyer Protection (BPP), which covers both INR and SNAD cases. The enrollment is AUTOMATIC as soon as a seller meets certain criteria, and you have to call to opt out.

IT's not so much that the buyer has a choice either to file with BCP or BPP for eBay items. There is only one complaint process and the claim will be taken over to BPP automatically if the item has BPP, otherwise it'll be a BCP claim.

Since the careless buyers won't notice if an eBay item has BPP or not, it used to be advantageous to opt out BPP, so that buyer can file INR claims only. But Paypal has defeated the strategy by January's extension.

To sum up, for eBay sellers it makes no difference if you are in or out of BPP; for non-eBay sellers it makes no difference either.

And quite contrary to common understanding, selling off eBay has slightly MORE protection for seller since buyer cannot file SNAD with Paypal. However, seller still lose the money if buyer file SNAD via cc chargeback.
See subsection 2.b.ii of SPP policy.

Paypal Buyer Complaint Process
Paypal Buyer Protection
Paypal Seller Protection Policy

This might deserve its own thread but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to maintain. tlaxon you are welcome to do so if you wish.


Is this correct (buyer cannot file SNAD with Paypal).

the subsection 2.b.ii of SPP policy only says (Claims for “not as described”:- Reversals arising from Buyer Claims for eBay items, or credit card chargebacks for any item, claiming that goods are "not as described."), this indicates that the buyer can do a SNAD via credit card charge back but it's not telling that a buyer can not do a SNAD directly with Paypal.

As a eBay seller you can cover yourself from everything (provided you are following Paypal SPP guidelines) except SNAD, and I am trying to understand paypal's SNAD policy, Thanks for any information.

Ugh I wish I'd read this thread sooner. I just got a charge reversal for $190 worth of Dell Concession coupons by a verified member that claims he was a victim of fraud. I was wary before I did business with him due to his 3 feedback rating, but I figured with a confirmed address and email i'd be alright. Wrong. I emailed the codes, and the next morning got the emails asking for his money back because it was fraud and the Paypal email-of-doom saying they'd held the money. I'm gonna print out the codes and mail them to the buyer on monday with a tracking number and throw that to paypal, see if that helps me with them, but I'm sure I'm not gonna get any money. Ugh. Just makes me sick. He claims someone stole his paypal, eBay, and email information and committed fraud against me and other eBay merchants selling gift certificates(codes only I'll bet). Anyway i'll post what happens, please I don't need any comments about how stupid I was in the first place.

This thread is great, thanks for posting!

update: supposedly he's going to send me a money order to cover the amount tomorrow without admitting any guilt. You can contact the attorney general in the person's state if you think you're a victim of fraud. I think it was in this thread that I read about paypalsucks.com and saw that guide to suing paypal. Amazingly it looks like you can win. sue paypal Good luck to all!

Great thread OP! But I have a question...

Sold a $150 printer on eBay. Buyer is local and wants to pickup. Buyer also informed me the item is for resale. Told the buyer I would accept cash only for local pickups and wanted resale certificate and copy of business license (to be tax exempt). No problem with the latter, but buyer wants to pay through PayPal for receipt purposes. Makes sense, so I am wondering if having him pay as a service will protect me? TIA

user0001 said: Great thread OP! But I have a question...

Sold a $150 printer on eBay. Buyer is local and wants to pickup. Buyer also informed me the item is for resale. Told the buyer I would accept cash only for local pickups and wanted resale certificate and copy of business license (to be tax exempt). No problem with the latter, but buyer wants to pay through PayPal for receipt purposes. Makes sense, so I am wondering if having him pay as a service will protect me? TIA


I'm not an expert, but as I read it you're not protected if he does a local pickup:

3. Online-trackable proof of delivery

PayPal requires you obtain online-trackable proof of delivery. If you ship via the USPS, get Delivery Confirmation (DC). If you ship via UPS/DHL/FedEx, you�ll get tracking automatically.

DC is confirmation of delivery only. It is not tracking.

If the total combined payment (item price + shipping + handling + insurance) is $250 or more, you MUST get a signature upon delivery. If not, you WILL lose an INR claim. For shipping via USPS, get Signature Confirmation (SC). For the other 3 carriers, request a signature.

If you allow pickups, you will not have online trackable proof of delivery. You WILL lose all INR claims. A receipt signed by the buyer in DNA-typable blood will not satisfy PayPal."


Actually now that I read that again, what does this mean:

DC is confirmation of delivery only. It is not tracking.

In the line before it said to GET DC if shipping by USPS. Does DC count for paypal protection or not? I've been getting DC and I just looked it up online and was able to confirm that the package was delivered using the confirmation number on my receipt.

That sounds like its for tangible goods though. If the buyer marks it as a service, then I'm thinking he wouldnt be protected by the policies...

user0001 said: That sounds like its for tangible goods though. If the buyer marks it as a service, then I'm thinking he wouldnt be protected by the policies...

OOOOOOOooooooh!! Now I get it! Pay as a service? Hmmm I guess I don't understand what legitimate reason he'd want to pay for the printer as a 'service' on paypal...

me personally? I'd do a gut check. If it doesn't feel right, I'd say thanks but no can do and find another buyer.

Just my 2 cents worth but it sounds a little hinky to me, especially over $150 printer. Ca$h would go a long way to making me feel more comfortable, but then again i'm having my own problems with a reversed charge on paypal so maybe i'm just shying away from it because of that.

Best of luck to you and let us know how it turns out!

Thats really my question - would marking as a service protect me from a PayPal chargeback? He wants a receipt, which PayPal would provide, but I dont want to have a chargeback and be SOL because I let him pick it up and there is no tracking number I can provide.

user0001 said: Thats really my question - would marking as a service protect me from a PayPal chargeback? He wants a receipt, which PayPal would provide, but I dont want to have a chargeback and be SOL because I let him pick it up and there is no tracking number I can provide.

From what I've read(and unfortunately experienced) your protection from a chargeback on Paypal is slim to none to begin with. If he's marking it as a service, I don't know if that's even covered. I'd bet dollars to donuts you'd have no protection against a chargeback, especially since, as far as I can tell, you'd be permitting him to fraudulantly say he was paying for a service when he was actually paying for an item. Too hinkey for me. If it's really about the receipt,there's no reason why you couldn't provide him with one. Is the paypal receipt a deal breaker? If it is, I'd say you're better off with a different buyer.

Just my 2 cents worth. I can see why he'd want to pick up a printer locally to save on shipping, but the insistance on paypal makes me suspicious, regardless of whether or not he has a good reason.

IMHO any reasonable buyer would be able to appreciate your insistance on protecting yourself from fraud by asking for cash. I know I'd understand.

Best of luck to you!

Buyer Complaint Policy says

1. General. PayPal’s Buyer Complaint Policy provides a method for buyers to issue formal complaints regarding goods paid for through PayPal but never received, and regarding goods purchased on e8ay and paid for through PayPal that the buyer receives but that are significantly not as described by the seller...


If you read it carefully and cf SPP the meantime, Paypal is just trying to say BCP covers eBay INR and SNAD claims, and off-e8ay INR claims but not SNAD claims.

It makes sense because e8ay (which paypal is a part) is better defined in many ways than its rivals so that SNAD claim can be easily arbitrated than other venues, comparatively speaking. For instance, an SNAD claim will fail automatically if the item description has "item sold as is..."


SUNNY said: peacherwu said: I just want to bring attention to the other side of the story: buying with Paypal.

For one thing, this thread has not covered much about Paypal complaint process; for another, there seems to be some misunderstanding in this board (or I could be wrong) about the process.

Paypal has Buyer Complaint Process (BCP) as a built-in protection program for Paypal payments. BCP USED to cover INR claims but not SNAD claims. However, since January 2005, Paypal has extended BCP to cover SNAD on eBay items as well.

For eBay items, Paypal offers sellers a program called Buyer Protection (BPP), which covers both INR and SNAD cases. The enrollment is AUTOMATIC as soon as a seller meets certain criteria, and you have to call to opt out.

IT's not so much that the buyer has a choice either to file with BCP or BPP for eBay items. There is only one complaint process and the claim will be taken over to BPP automatically if the item has BPP, otherwise it'll be a BCP claim.

Since the careless buyers won't notice if an eBay item has BPP or not, it used to be advantageous to opt out BPP, so that buyer can file INR claims only. But Paypal has defeated the strategy by January's extension.

To sum up, for eBay sellers it makes no difference if you are in or out of BPP; for non-eBay sellers it makes no difference either.

And quite contrary to common understanding, selling off eBay has slightly MORE protection for seller since buyer cannot file SNAD with Paypal. However, seller still lose the money if buyer file SNAD via cc chargeback.
See subsection 2.b.ii of SPP policy.

Paypal Buyer Complaint Process
Paypal Buyer Protection
Paypal Seller Protection Policy

This might deserve its own thread but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to maintain. tlaxon you are welcome to do so if you wish.


Is this correct (buyer cannot file SNAD with Paypal).

the subsection 2.b.ii of SPP policy only says (Claims for “not as described”:- Reversals arising from Buyer Claims for eBay items, or credit card chargebacks for any item, claiming that goods are "not as described."), this indicates that the buyer can do a SNAD via credit card charge back but it's not telling that a buyer can not do a SNAD directly with Paypal.

As a eBay seller you can cover yourself from everything (provided you are following Paypal SPP guidelines) except SNAD, and I am trying to understand paypal's SNAD policy, Thanks for any information.

The item doesn't qualify for either Buyer Protection or Seller Protection if it's a service.

This means that if the buyer files complaint with PP, he won't win; if he files cc chargeback, you loose the money.

user0001 said: Thats really my question - would marking as a service protect me from a PayPal chargeback? He wants a receipt, which PayPal would provide, but I dont want to have a chargeback and be SOL because I let him pick it up and there is no tracking number I can provide.

johnny1290 said: Actually now that I read that again, what does this mean:

DC is confirmation of delivery only. It is not tracking.

In the line before it said to GET DC if shipping by USPS. Does DC count for paypal protection or not? I've been getting DC and I just looked it up online and was able to confirm that the package was delivered using the confirmation number on my receipt.

Yes, DC does count for PayPal. PayPal wants *proof of delivery*. They don't care if your item is delivered by a yak, as long as the item can be shown to be delivered online.

Again, DC is confirmation of delivery. You buy it, you get a DC number, you go online, and check whether delivery has been made. Sometimes you get quasi-tracking info, in that your package may be scanned along the way, but this is not required and should never be counted on to happen.

tlaxson said: johnny1290 said: Actually now that I read that again, what does this mean:

DC is confirmation of delivery only. It is not tracking.

In the line before it said to GET DC if shipping by USPS. Does DC count for paypal protection or not? I've been getting DC and I just looked it up online and was able to confirm that the package was delivered using the confirmation number on my receipt.

Yes, DC does count for PayPal. PayPal wants *proof of delivery*. They don't care if your item is delivered by a yak, as long as the item can be shown to be delivered online.

Again, DC is confirmation of delivery. You buy it, you get a DC number, you go online, and check whether delivery has been made. Sometimes you get quasi-tracking info, in that your package may be scanned along the way, but this is not required and should never be counted on to happen.


Thanks Tlaxson! I've just started shipping items with DC this last week and even though it's an extra hassle, it sure seems worth it if the item costs more than I'm willing to lose. I'm new to DC and just found out today in order to get a DC the item needs to be sent priority mail or else you have to get a signature confirmation(certified mail?) for 2.75 or thereabouts. OK enough mail talk for me today, time to play some poker! Best to all



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