Yep...every eBay/PayPal seller's worst nightmare has happened to me:
Zero feedback buyer (registered same day) buys a laptop and I go to print the shipping label. UPS address checker says no such address exists. I then try the FedEx address checker, again, no such address. Same for Google Maps, Anywho, and Intellius. Mind you that this his address is confirmed (and his account verified) in PayPal. I go to call the buyer and his eBay phone number is invalid. I emailed the buyer asking what's up with the address and that I can't ship until they advise on whether its correct or not. While awaiting his reply, I contact the Cincinnati, OH police department to inquire if they've ever heard of the address (assuming that if anyone would know, they would) and three police departments all confirm no such address exists. Two days later the buyer replies back that the address in indeed correct and it's a brand new street not on the maps yet and if UPS cannot locate the address he will call them and give them directions. I ship the laptop that day UPS Ground with signature required and insured for its full $500 value.
Fast forward two days and UPS tracking reports they cannot find the address. A few "exceptions" on tracking regarding their attempt to locate his address, then *boom* the most recent was that a delivery change request has been inputted for the shipment. Next day, attempted delivery at the new address, but no one is available to sign. The day after that it is successfully delivered and signed for by him at the changed address.
All is fine for a few days then today I get a PayPal claim that the buyer claims the payment is unauthorized and initiated a credit card chargeback. I uploaded the tracking details and plan to call PayPal anyway, however, I'm concerned about this as it is likely a grey area since the buyer re-routed the package. The original address and new address are both in the same city, state and zip - which shows on the tracking page - however the details still show it was rerouted.
Any ideas on how this will pan out? I'm guessing either:
a) His credit card company will see that it was delivered to him and he signed for it (his full name is signed in the online signature image) and close the chargeback. b) If not, PayPal will rule in my favor since I did originally ship to his PayPal confirmed address and it was delivered to him in the same city, state, zip and signed by him. c) If not, then open a UPS claim since UPS allowed a $500 insured signature required shipment to be re-routed without my consent. d) If denied, then what? Take UPS to court? Have the Cincinnati police show up at the address the shipment was re-routed to (I do have that address provided to me by UPS)?
I'll update after this is done but wondering if anyone have any thought/past experiences/etc. they can share?
I should also add that just two days ago, he bought another laptop - this time a $1300 one - from another seller. Something tells me that the same is going to happen to that seller.
Update: PayPal ruled in my favor today and they absorbed the chargeback. Thanks everyone for their help and advice.
My real question is, why after seeing almost every possible red flag did you still send the laptop. Fake phone number fake address, new account, 0 feedback. If he had over paid you and asked him to send you the difference with a western union money order would you have done that as well?
Skulles said: My real question is, why after seeing almost every possible red flag did you still send the laptop. Fake phone number fake address, new account, 0 feedback. If he had over paid you and asked him to send you the difference with a western union money order would you have done that as well? Naturally I was concerned, however, when he responded that his address was a new street what would I have done? Called him a liar? I mean, sure, I could have just refunded and moved on, however, that could of led to a problems as well. Also, the fact that it was a confirmed address and verified PP account made things seem even more legit. How could someone "confirm" a fake address - I thought the PayPal system was pretty strong in that regard. The phone number was concerning, however, I figured that maybe it was a simple "hit a wrong key" when signing up kind of thing.
UPS does not allow the receiver to reroute a package. However, if for some reason (and sometimes for no reason) UPS has a problem delivering at the destination address, UPS will reroute to a different address on their own. UPS will allow anyone to sign for a package.
rocker86 said: Yep...every eBay/PayPal seller's worst nightmare has happened to me:
All is fine for a few days then today I get a PayPal claim that the buyer claims the payment is unauthorized and initiated a credit card chargeback.
It sounds like the buyer is using a stolen credit card and the real cc owner is disputing the charge. I'd definately call Paypal. I thought sellers were protected against unauthorized CC purchases like this but it might be subject to a max. amount.
BradMajors said: UPS does not allow the receiver to reroute a package. However, if for some reason (and sometimes for no reason) UPS has a problem delivering at the destination address, UPS will reroute to a different address on their own. UPS will allow anyone to sign for a package.
Not true. UPS is very easy to get to re-rout a package, been discussed a million times. If you want buyer not to be able to re-rout use FedEx
rocker86 said: ... The phone number was concerning, however, I figured that maybe it was a simple "hit a wrong key" when signing up kind of thing.... then email him asking for his real phone number (see if he "hit the wrong key")
CrazierRus said: BradMajors said: UPS does not allow the receiver to reroute a package. However, if for some reason (and sometimes for no reason) UPS has a problem delivering at the destination address, UPS will reroute to a different address on their own. UPS will allow anyone to sign for a package.
Not true. UPS is very easy to get to re-rout a package, been discussed a million times. If you want buyer not to be able to re-rout use FedEx Not true. UPS will not allow re-routing a package, I have tried a million times and I have been turned down every time. If the initial delivery fails, UPS will deliver anywhere.
rocker86 said: I should also add that just two days ago, he bought another laptop - this time a $1300 one - from another seller. Something tells me that the same is going to happen to that seller. In these types of situations, I do what you did and look at the buyer's bidding history. I contact the other sellers to warn them and see how their transaction is going.
couponjohn
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 2:36p
rocker86, would you like to reveal his ID here so we can block him?
BradMajors said: CrazierRus said: BradMajors said: UPS does not allow the receiver to reroute a package. However, if for some reason (and sometimes for no reason) UPS has a problem delivering at the destination address, UPS will reroute to a different address on their own. UPS will allow anyone to sign for a package.
Not true. UPS is very easy to get to re-rout a package, been discussed a million times. If you want buyer not to be able to re-rout use FedEx Not true. UPS will not allow re-routing a package, I have tried a million times and I have been turned down every time. If the initial delivery fails, UPS will deliver anywhere.
Well not exactly.
Like you said, "if the initial delivery fails" they'll delivery it to anywhere. You can just call them and refuse to accept the item. That technically put it as a delivery fail, then you can ship it to another place. Generally UPS CSRs have no idea why it had failed, so they will allow you to reroute.
Or there's another way
You can ask CSR to connect you to Local delivery center and ask to arrange a meeting with the driver. They'll let you snag it at the delivery route.
You should be fine Rocker since you followwed PP's seller protection rules, but I agree with Skulles. With everything else, the invalid phone number would have been my way out. I'd have filed invalid contact info with eBay, watched him go NARU, refunded payment and moved on. Of course, I'm looking through 20-20 hindsight goggles, so it's painfully clear to me.
I hope you have at least reported him to eBay for invalid contact info now.
henny said: rocker86 said: Yep...every eBay/PayPal seller's worst nightmare has happened to me:
All is fine for a few days then today I get a PayPal claim that the buyer claims the payment is unauthorized and initiated a credit card chargeback.
It sounds like the buyer is using a stolen credit card and the real cc owner is disputing the charge. I'd definately call Paypal. I thought sellers were protected against unauthorized CC purchases like this but it might be subject to a max. amount. That's what I was thinking too. However, if that's the case, then how can the (non-existent) address be confirmed in PP?
dcg9381
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 15, 2009 @ 9:35a
BradMajors said: UPS does not allow the receiver to reroute a package. However, if for some reason (and sometimes for no reason) UPS has a problem delivering at the destination address, UPS will reroute to a different address on their own. UPS will allow anyone to sign for a package.
I reroute packages all the time. I believe they must make a delivery attempt first.. However, in this case as the address didn't exist, I don't know what the policy is.
My concern would be that this is an ID theft issue - they've got a CC and all the billing info. It would be relatively easy to change the "billing" address - validate in paypal and then route packages. I'd call PP right away..
dcg9381
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 15, 2009 @ 9:36a
rocker86 said: That's what I was thinking too. However, if that's the case, then how can the (non-existent) address be confirmed in PP?
Easy, the scammer has complete account information - IE phishing a citibank account - then they can change the CC address, then use paypal to confirm that address, and do whatever they want..
dcg9381 said: rocker86 said: That's what I was thinking too. However, if that's the case, then how can the (non-existent) address be confirmed in PP?
Easy, the scammer has complete account information - IE phishing a citibank account - then they can change the CC address, then use paypal to confirm that address, and do whatever they want.. Thanks...I didn't think of it that way.
Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria.
couponjohn
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Jun. 16, 2009 @ 2:26p
cnIsfg said: Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria.
Thats a waste of time, they dont care what the package says on it when they type it into a computer to re-route, they dont look at the package.
as far as no pickup well sorry that will all so not fly anyoen can do a local pickup ...
couponjohn said: cnIsfg said: Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria.
Thats a waste of time, they dont care what the package says on it when they type it into a computer to re-route, they dont look at the package.
as far as no pickup well sorry that will all so not fly anyoen can do a local pickup ...
If your FedEx or UPS account is flagged for no in-service re-routing then it is irelevant who, when or where attempts to reroute occur. As for the labels they are simply a remiinder to Fedex employees who can already see the EXACT same information when they scan the FedEx label on your shipments if your FedEx account is setup as I descibed. If the labels did not work FedEx would NOT provide them. From a legal standpoint in terms of FedEx’s service contract fulfillment to deliver the service within the terms of their customer service agreements and specific FedEx account riders adding these restrictions to your account means A LOT. From FedEx’s own internal procedures and limiting our liability from lazy FedEx employees not following FedEx’s own internal procedures it means EVERYTHING. Like I said earlier we NEVER receive ANY challenge to claims we file where lazy FedEx Employees did not do their job and still hold packages for pickup or rerouted them based on a third party’s request. If you are an individual person without a FedEx account and shipping out of Kinkos then yes these are not going to work.
jsflynn603
Member
posted: Jun. 17, 2009 @ 1:50p
I hope you have written the other seller who just sold a laptop to this scammer....
couponjohn
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Jun. 17, 2009 @ 3:07p
cnIsfg said: couponjohn said: cnIsfg said: Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria.
Thats a waste of time, they dont care what the package says on it when they type it into a computer to re-route, they dont look at the package.
as far as no pickup well sorry that will all so not fly anyoen can do a local pickup ...
If your FedEx or UPS account is flagged for no in-service re-routing then it is irelevant who, when or where attempts to reroute occur. As for the labels they are simply a remiinder to Fedex employees who can already see the EXACT same information when they scan the FedEx label on your shipments if your FedEx account is setup as I descibed. If the labels did not work FedEx would NOT provide them. From a legal standpoint in terms of FedEx’s service contract fulfillment to deliver the service within the terms of their customer service agreements and specific FedEx account riders adding these restrictions to your account means A LOT. From FedEx’s own internal procedures and limiting our liability from lazy FedEx employees not following FedEx’s own internal procedures it means EVERYTHING. Like I said earlier we NEVER receive ANY challenge to claims we file where lazy FedEx Employees did not do their job and still hold packages for pickup or rerouted them based on a third party’s request. If you are an individual person without a FedEx account and shipping out of Kinkos then yes these are not going to work.
I did NOT know they even OFFERED these to their customers, at least they don't show them on THEIR site. I all so KNOW that MANY FedEx employees and SUB CONTRACTORS such as their ground people who really don't care what the sticker says but instead gets PAID to DELIVER the item and NOT to bring it back! So MUCH for Emphasizing my words like YOU did!
couponjohn said: cnIsfg said: couponjohn said: cnIsfg said: Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria.
Thats a waste of time, they dont care what the package says on it when they type it into a computer to re-route, they dont look at the package.
as far as no pickup well sorry that will all so not fly anyoen can do a local pickup ...
If your FedEx or UPS account is flagged for no in-service re-routing then it is irelevant who, when or where attempts to reroute occur. As for the labels they are simply a remiinder to Fedex employees who can already see the EXACT same information when they scan the FedEx label on your shipments if your FedEx account is setup as I descibed. If the labels did not work FedEx would NOT provide them. From a legal standpoint in terms of FedEx’s service contract fulfillment to deliver the service within the terms of their customer service agreements and specific FedEx account riders adding these restrictions to your account means A LOT. From FedEx’s own internal procedures and limiting our liability from lazy FedEx employees not following FedEx’s own internal procedures it means EVERYTHING. Like I said earlier we NEVER receive ANY challenge to claims we file where lazy FedEx Employees did not do their job and still hold packages for pickup or rerouted them based on a third party’s request. If you are an individual person without a FedEx account and shipping out of Kinkos then yes these are not going to work.
I did NOT know they even OFFERED these to their customers, at least they don't show them on THEIR site. I all so KNOW that MANY FedEx employees and SUB CONTRACTORS such as their ground people who really don't care what the sticker says but instead gets PAID to DELIVER the item and NOT to bring it back! So MUCH for Emphasizing my words like YOU did!
So just because YOU don't know about it means no one else can benefit? IF you READ my post you would realize that regardless of which FedEx employee, subcontractor or any other money FedEx hires to deliver your shipments is IRRELVANT! As long as your FedEx account is properly setup thre is NO issue who FedEx uses to deliver your shipments. For some reason you can't seem to get past the No-reroute/No hold for pick labels FedEx provides for this service which is NOT the point of the post describing services thaat FedEx offers that SOME here may not be using. Despite your opinion, FedEx DOES care when its employees don't do their job and they DO financially penalize employees and third party subcontractors for failure to PROPERLY deliver packages in accordance with customer account specific delivery restrictions. So much for YOU comprehending the intent of my post. I am sure OTHERS here understood it PERFECTLY in the spirit it was origianlly posted.
I think the point is, If you flag your account, NOT to forward/re-route packages and if you have an experience like the OP, you would be covered, especially if you have insurance.
Another safety precaution, to protect you from scammers out there. I for certain, would do this if I am shipping a high value item.
There is no need to poke holes in the quality and reliability of this service. That is besides the point.
couponjohn said: cnIsfg said: Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria.
Thats a waste of time, they dont care what the package says on it when they type it into a computer to re-route, they dont look at the package.
as far as no pickup well sorry that will all so not fly anyoen can do a local pickup ...
couponjohn
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Jun. 18, 2009 @ 2:32p
cnIsfg, I would respond to your comment but its just not WORTH the TIME to debate whats what at Fedex.
Oh one thing, you said they supply these stickers to there customers? Can you provide me a link to them on their website or even whom I can call and get these from. I just cant seem to locate them and the fedex people I talked with said they knew nothing about them, and since you said they provide them I would love to order some..
thanks
burningrave101
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 18, 2009 @ 10:15p
couponjohn said: cnIsfg, I would respond to your comment but its just not WORTH the TIME to debate whats what at Fedex.
Oh one thing, you said they supply these stickers to there customers? Can you provide me a link to them on their website or even whom I can call and get these from. I just cant seem to locate them and the fedex people I talked with said they knew nothing about them, and since you said they provide them I would love to order some..
thanks
Who are the "FedEx people" that you spoke with? Call FedEx customer service and ask to speak to your account rep.
cnIsfg said: Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria. I can understand not allowing buyers to re-route packages, but why not allow them to pick it up at the facility? I was under the impression that PayPal would cover such an instance. Since you said you use a merchant account, do they not protect you if the buyer picks the item up? Just curious...
burningrave101
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 19, 2009 @ 10:30a
rocker86 said: cnIsfg said: Despite common belief you CAN have your UPS account(s) flagged for no-rerouting/no customer address corrections and UPS will be 100% liable of they cannot prove the shipment was delivered at the delivery address on the label. The only downside is that once flagged you the shipper cannot make any routing or address changes for in-route shipments either.
In addition to no-rerouting, for FedEx shipments FedEx Express and Ground accounts can be flagged for no address corrections or local hub pickup if you choose. Just contact your FedEx rep and they can setup your account(s) that way and even provide you with some specialized FedEx warning labels (I will attach a scan of one of these labels). We ship tens of thousands of FedEx shipments with no problems. In the few times that the local FedEx employees waivered from our account restrictions and could not recover the parcel we received automatic claim payments with no issues whatsoever. We do occasionally receive negative comments from irate customers who did not read our policies before they ordered and who were not able to pickup shipments at a local hub. However we clearly state in our sales policies, checkout instructions which each customer must acknowledge to submit orders and then once again in our shipment notifications that orders will only be shipped to the address our merchant bank provides and customers must be available at that address to receive deliveries. No local hub or alternate address deliveries will be permitted. If a signature will be required we also state that criteria. I can understand not allowing buyers to re-route packages, but why not allow them to pick it up at the facility? I was under the impression that PayPal would cover such an instance. Since you said you use a merchant account, do they not protect you if the buyer picks the item up? Just curious...
Because anyone could call UPS with the tracking number and name and tell them they're going to pick it up at the facility. Then they just go and make a little chicken scratch mark on the signature panel and leave. When the package is delivered to a residence then that person has to be at that location in order to sign for it.
Every reroute I've done as a package recipient required the infonotice #, not the tracking #. That makes it slightly more secure. In addition, ID is always checked. Yes, it's possible to intercept packages with the depot pickup option, but not quite as easy as you make it sound.
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