That' just false advertisement. Nobody flies for 40$ Fist Class international.
a) taxes are way higher already then the 40$ mentioned, some frequent flyer programs (e.g. British Airways) also slam you with fuel surcharges on their award tickets b) you have to count the yearly costs of the credit cards c) you have to count opportunity costs (at least 2% Cash Back on your purchases), if you spend 25000$ thats already 500$+ Cash Back d) on Star Alliance (United) you need 135k miles for a first class round trip to Europe so either you need to fly a lot or buy a lot e) finding 2 seats is a lot harder, travelling alone usually is easier f) credit card churning is now not working anymore, in the old days you could get a lot of miles by just churning a personal and a business credit card and getting the sign up bonus, now this is a 1 time deal
I fly around 150k + miles a year and do get quite some benefit out of it (e.g. 2 first class tickets for my wife and son to Europe this summer). But without a decent amount of business or private travel it is not this easy to rake up the miles.
And if you are ok flying economy it is usually cheaper to just use Cash Back credit cards and pick the lowest cost carrier.
travelinmonkey
New Member
posted: Nov. 17, 2009 @ 11:21p
GermanExpat said: That' just false advertisement. Nobody flies for 40$ Fist Class international.
That's not true ... I have flown LAX-GRU and LAX-MVD (back when UA flew to MVD and not EZE) for around $40-$60 all in, depending on the routing and connections...
GermanExpat said: a) taxes are way higher already then the 40$ mentioned, some frequent flyer programs (e.g. British Airways) also slam you with fuel surcharges on their award tickets
europe is more expensive and your ticket price depends on routing ..
GermanExpat said: b) you have to count the yearly costs of the credit cards
Nah .. people who have mileage cards get it to get miles for purchases they would have made anyways ... the same thing goes for people who have Cash Back cards or point cards .... you seek a card with benefits for stuff you would be doing anyways.
GermanExpat said: c) you have to count opportunity costs (at least 2% Cash Back on your purchases), if you spend 25000$ thats already 500$+ Cash Back
see above ... if you go out of your way for miles that you would otherwise get a 2% Cash Back card for, then you are right ... but if it is something you would have done anyways, then not really.
GermanExpat said: d) on Star Alliance (United) you need 135k miles for a first class round trip to Europe so either you need to fly a lot or buy a lot
Maybe the program changed, but I flew in F for 100k miles in 2004 and 2005 ....
GermanExpat said: e) finding 2 seats is a lot harder, travelling alone usually is easier
yes ... and travelling for 5 is a lot harder than for one. what is the point?
GermanExpat said: f) credit card churning is now not working anymore, in the old days you could get a lot of miles by just churning a personal and a business credit card and getting the sign up bonus, now this is a 1 time deal
I don't understand what you refer to as 'churning' .. but I have 1 personal card with citi (25K bonus) and 2 business cards with citi (25K bonus each) that I opened within 6 months of each other ... and will be opening a second personal with citi for an addition 25k bonus later this year after the next 6 months pass.
You can open as many accounts as you wish for as many bonus miles as you want as long as it is 6 months from each other and you have the proper credit score..
GermanExpat said: I fly around 150k + miles a year and do get quite some benefit out of it (e.g. 2 first class tickets for my wife and son to Europe this summer). But without a decent amount of business or private travel it is not this easy to rake up the miles.
And if you are ok flying economy it is usually cheaper to just use Cash Back credit cards and pick the lowest cost carrier.
I actually wrote the article .. and recently launched the website... noticed traffic coming from this site and decided to check it out ... i'm amazed it has even been posted....
most people who want miles for free tickets are getting econ Y seats and not B or F ... and, as I have written in other articles, you do not require much flying, but smart spending...
There are a lot of programs that double or triple your miles. You give up elite status, but you get to fly for free. Did you even read the article!?
travelinmonkey said: GermanExpat said: b) you have to count the yearly costs of the credit cards
Nah .. people who have mileage cards get it to get miles for purchases they would have made anyways ... the same thing goes for people who have Cash Back cards or point cards .... you seek a card with benefits for stuff you would be doing anyways.
GermanExpat said: c) you have to count opportunity costs (at least 2% Cash Back on your purchases), if you spend 25000$ thats already 500$+ Cash Back
see above ... if you go out of your way for miles that you would otherwise get a 2% Cash Back card for, then you are right ... but if it is something you would have done anyways, then not really.
You're generally better off with a 2% CashBack card. At 2% CashBack you'll generally accumulate enough money with the same amount of spending to purchase the ticket outright with money leftover which gives you:
a) flexibility with carriers b) flexibility in dates and flights c) you get to earn miles for the flight itself d) a small amount of gains via earned interest on the funds
Yes, I did read your article. Your data is a little outdated. United changed their award charts a while ago and it is one of the friendlier frequent flyer programs for accumulating and spending miles (apart from Starnet blocking which can drive me up the wall). Over time I have probably gotten 20 first or business class international tickets myself, last one for July / August 2009 for my mother in Business on LH from FRA to DEN (before this one UA first from DEN - MUC in November 2008).
It seems like most of your references are from 2005. Churning (cancelling and getting the same credit card again for the sign up bonus) has been stopped, at least by Chase and I am pretty sure by Citi too. Almost all mileage related credit cards to you have yearly costs (e.g. my United Card is 140$, I get 60$ of it back by being 1K with United, so still 80$ costs I don't have with other cards).
You do miss the opportunity costs, if you get 2% Cash Back thats on 135k miles between 1350$ and 2700$ Cash Back (dependent whether you get 1 mile or 2 miles per $, but you can also get up to 5% Cash Back for expenses that give you 2 miles). It is not like I compared spending cash vs using a miles credit card. You have to compare the best credit card to the mileage credit card you use to calculate the opportunity costs.
If you really want to get good information about how to get and use miles with all the tips and tricks then go to
There are plenty of mileage addicts out there and if you are up for it the best way to get miles is to do 'mileage runs' but this only works if you don't put much value on your time. There is a forum on there specializing on mileage runs and many others about each frequent traveler program.
If you want to read a good blog about a mileage addict go here :
I collect my shares of miles (mainly through flying for work, some credit card activity where appropriate, e.g. buying airline tickets) but I still think that Cash Back cards give you in general better values. I can book a flight in economy to a lot of international destinations for a couple hundred dollars in economy and have money left. Obviously not as comfortable as flying business or first. But I do have free upgrade coupons with UA and tend to book Y and pay for the flight and just use the coupons to get into C.
travelinmonkey
New Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 2:32a
hejustlaughs said: travelinmonkey said: GermanExpat said: b) you have to count the yearly costs of the credit cards
Nah .. people who have mileage cards get it to get miles for purchases they would have made anyways ... the same thing goes for people who have Cash Back cards or point cards .... you seek a card with benefits for stuff you would be doing anyways.
GermanExpat said: c) you have to count opportunity costs (at least 2% Cash Back on your purchases), if you spend 25000$ thats already 500$+ Cash Back
see above ... if you go out of your way for miles that you would otherwise get a 2% Cash Back card for, then you are right ... but if it is something you would have done anyways, then not really.
You're generally better off with a 2% CashBack card. At 2% CashBack you'll generally accumulate enough money with the same amount of spending to purchase the ticket outright with money leftover which gives you:
a) flexibility with carriers b) flexibility in dates and flights c) you get to earn miles for the flight itself d) a small amount of gains via earned interest on the funds
I believe if you go back and read this article Part 1: EQMs and then this article Part 2: Elite Status you will realize that I am telling my readers to choose an airline that is part of a world alliance that flies out of their hub city and to wherever they want to go. They pre-choose the flexibility with the carrier.
By your second point I am assuming that you are referring to those horrible cards that offer no black-out dates and you can get any carrier you want because you don't actually earn miles in a FF program but a mileage point scheme. You don't get blackout dates with award tickets, but you do have a hard time finding a seat let's say, for christmas. No different than paying cash and trying to find a good fare IMHO.
The beauty of award tickets is reaping the benefits of having done MRs and CC stuff to fly in B or F ... a $5k - $15 k ticket internationally
On your last point, I believe making a couple hundred (if that) on a 2% Cash Back pails in comparison to my F class ticket LAX-MVD that runs on UA for $15k. I don't spend that much to get 2% of whatever it is to make $15k for a first class flight!
travelinmonkey
New Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 2:43a
GermanExpat said: Travelingmonkey :
Yes, I did read your article. Your data is a little outdated. United changed their award charts a while ago and it is one of the friendlier frequent flyer programs for accumulating and spending miles (apart from Starnet blocking which can drive me up the wall). Over time I have probably gotten 20 first or business class international tickets myself, last one for July / August 2009 for my mother in Business on LH from FRA to DEN (before this one UA first from DEN - MUC in November 2008).
It seems like most of your references are from 2005. Churning (cancelling and getting the same credit card again for the sign up bonus) has been stopped, at least by Chase and I am pretty sure by Citi too. Almost all mileage related credit cards to you have yearly costs (e.g. my United Card is 140$, I get 60$ of it back by being 1K with United, so still 80$ costs I don't have with other cards).
You do miss the opportunity costs, if you get 2% Cash Back thats on 135k miles between 1350$ and 2700$ Cash Back (dependent whether you get 1 mile or 2 miles per $, but you can also get up to 5% Cash Back for expenses that give you 2 miles). It is not like I compared spending cash vs using a miles credit card. You have to compare the best credit card to the mileage credit card you use to calculate the opportunity costs.
If you really want to get good information about how to get and use miles with all the tips and tricks then go to
There are plenty of mileage addicts out there and if you are up for it the best way to get miles is to do 'mileage runs' but this only works if you don't put much value on your time. There is a forum on there specializing on mileage runs and many others about each frequent traveler program.
If you want to read a good blog about a mileage addict go here :
I collect my shares of miles (mainly through flying for work, some credit card activity where appropriate, e.g. buying airline tickets) but I still think that Cash Back cards give you in general better values. I can book a flight in economy to a lot of international destinations for a couple hundred dollars in economy and have money left. Obviously not as comfortable as flying business or first. But I do have free upgrade coupons with UA and tend to book Y and pay for the flight and just use the coupons to get into C.
Thank you for reading! I believe you might be mistaken about that outdated 2005 data because I verified everything with the FF programs before posting. I don't see what exactly is out-dated since I am referring to elite status and levels ... I have one set left in this series where I will be explaining that I traded 100k UA miles ... I dont fly UA anymore, so it could be different, but that is what I spent at that time.
I am aware of FT and it has been rather useful over the years!
What I used to do was sign up 6 months apart and consolidate the CCs into one. At one point I had a UA mileage card at $85 a year with a $35k credit line! HA! It was tough switching to CO, but hey, they stopped flying into MVD!
As far as $$ back cards ... I've tried them and I don't like them. Most of the cards are limited to gas, groceries, and other such items. It isn't like you get % back for ALL purchases... plus they cap you as to how much you can get back per calendar year. You make status on an airline and suddenly you have no limit and can qualify for X multipliers in gaining miles!
I just took a LAX-GRU-LAX MR in Nov on the CO 2xEQM promo and qualified for Plat and made 32k RDMs + 20k EQMs! I've never seen a multiplier for Cash Back .. so once you get down to the nitty gritty, mileage cards seem to be on top if your end goal is to travel internationally in B or F .. or to gift miles to your family and friends
Thank you for that link, I will definitely check it out! As far as Cash Back vs mileage, again, consumer's choice. I tend to rack up miles VERY quickly (750k on UA in 5 years ... I've been CO for 2 years and have racked in 350k so far!) and Cash Back, i don't know .. here is a list of what I have done with my miles:
SFO-MVD in F LAX-MVD in F LAX-FRA in B for world cup 2006 MVD-ATH in Y for my cousin MVD-LAX in B for my grandma SFO-NRT in Y EZE-FRA in Y for my fiance JFK-MVD in Y for my cousin MVD-LAS in B for my friend and 2 MVD-LAS in Y for my other friends
Can you honestly tell me that at 5% on all purchases averaging about 50k in purchases a year since 2002 would make me enough money for all these tickets and their booking class?
You should head over to the finance forum to read up on credit cards. There are plenty of fee free Cash Back cards out that give unlimited Cash Back (2% currently on at least 2 cards). Assuming you spend around 380k in the 7+ years you would have gotten easily 8-12k Cash Back. Depends a little on your mix (gas, grocery etc.) and whether you did take advantage of promos like 5% unlimited for a couple month on 1 card. With fully optimizing it you probably would have gotten more.
In general I don't disagree with you that you can get good deals but it really depends how you value your tickets. If you are ok flying Y then mileage cards and using miles rather then just paying for a ticket are usually not for you especially not when you travel domestic US. They can be decent deals if you fly international. If you are ok being in the back of the bus and go for the lowest cost ticket then even there they don't make sense.
Also when you fly on a Award ticket you will not get miles which you also need to add into the equation.
Your rates look a lot better because like me you do fly a lot of miles and those do add up very quickly with all the promos the airlines are running. If you have to fly anyway it is very advantageous to collect all your miles in one account. Then it is also way smarter to use them for F or C tickets rather then siting in the back of the bus.
I do collect a lot of miles like you and use them but I am still not a big fan of the mileage credit cards. I much rather have the cash in my pocket and are flexible to spend it any way I want rather then being locked into programs that tend to devalue your points or miles (happened on United just a short while ago, happened to my Frontier miles with no availability, happening at hilton now to my points there early next year).
Sign up bonuses can be very good deals though for the cards but unfortunately the days of churning are over and from all I know you can usually only get 1 personal and 1 business card sign up bonus.
I don't like generalizations but for most people that do not fly themselves a lot (especially not international) points based cards are not a good deal. There are obviously exceptions to this but those are in my opinion the special cases and not the general public.
travelinmonkey
New Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 11:03a
The bottom line is buyer-beware ... I also have a checklist that I ask people to refer to when deciding. For instance, if you aren't going to make at least 25k miles, then there is no point in having a card with an annual fee.
As far as devaluations go, the same holds true for all programs. When the economy gets tough, these programs are the first to get cut. That is why I keep about 150-200k miles in my account and spend spend spend accordingly. I've never understood the mile hoards who keep millions of miles in their accounts. What for?!
Maybe if I were to save up for an around-the-world in F that would be different! HAHA
rogue409
Frivolous Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 11:55a
travelinmonkey said: GermanExpat said: c) you have to count opportunity costs (at least 2% Cash Back on your purchases), if you spend 25000$ thats already 500$+ Cash Back see above ... if you go out of your way for miles that you would otherwise get a 2% Cash Back card for, then you are right ... but if it is something you would have done anyways, then not really.
No. You do have to account for them.
travelinmonkey said: Can you honestly tell me that at 5% on all purchases averaging about 50k in purchases a year since 2002 would make me enough money for all these tickets and their booking class?
9 years * 50K=$450K spend
at 5% Cash Back, that's $22,500. Even half of that is $11,250. This is your opportunity cost. Of course your tickets would have cost much more than this, but this is a pretty low bar to pass.
You've purchased 11 tickets in a mixture of First, Business, and Coach class. So the more accurate title of your article should be "How I flew in First, Business, and Coach for an average of $1,222.72+40 and How You Can Too Part 3: Miles and More." Still a good price, but not nearly as catchy of a title.
This is the last part of my series ... I am always interested in criticism, but even better, anything anyone wants me to do some research in and write an easy to read guide!
I too do a fair amount of travel on business, and try to maximize rewards for vacations. For people who are patient, with some flexibility in their plans and travel schedule, discount airfares turn out to be MUCH cheaper (in terms of opportunity cost) than a Cash Back or other reward card. We have AMEX Blue for our personal use (put EVERYTHING on it), and as we pay the balance in full, earned almost $800 Cash Back last year, and expect to do as least as well this year.
For frequent travelers, I have found the hilton chain to be the most generous with points, and more importantly, lots of options to use them. For this reason, I primarily use a hilton Hhonors AMEX for business, and end up with 10 - 14 days per year in desirable locations. Year to date, I have spent almost $18k on the card, and have accumulated almost 80k points. This is good for 2 to 3 nights in decent locations, but would not even qualify for one highly restricted domestic RT with air miles.
American has been VERY GOOD to me this year. In my younger days, I traveled regularly to Europe from So Ca, earning me Aadvantage Gold for life (25k miles per year). Most of my travel is now mostly regional, and with American cutting back on some routes, I barely few enough to qualify for Gold on my own. FORTUNATELY, American ran double elite qualifying promotions during my two of my extended trips this year, JUST qualifying me for Platinum.
So while I agree that much of travelinmonkey's data is becoming obsolete, the major carriers periodically run such promotions, aimed at their more loyal business travelers to help them earn elite status.
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