Dryer Fire

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Let's see if Maytag does anything..

Fire department removed the dryer from the home after black smoke came pouring out.  It's out of warranty; however, definitely not a "neglect" thing.  As a volunteer FF, I'm acutely aware of dryer fires and the need to clean lint from inside the dryer and dryer venting (I even scope the thing with my USB endoscope).

Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
 

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More than likely, if you contact them directly, they'll apologize and give you a discount on a future purchase as a token.

But contact the CPSC (consumer product safety commission). Looks like an electrical fire, and not a vent issue. They will forward the report to Maytag who will definitely be back in touch with you. Don't throw it out - they may want to pick it up to test but will probably offer you something much better than 20%.

I had a similar issue with a nice space heater. Initially, they said they might want to look at it, but only offered me a 20% discount on a new one. But after the CPSC got in touch with them, they called me, picked up the unit for free to verify what was wrong (in my case, a capacitor sparked and blew, which caused smoke and smell), and sent me a brand new one.

It's exactly this reason the dryer and the dishwasher are not left running when we go to sleep.

A Maytag product failed? Noooooooooo.

DTASFAB said:   A Maytag product failed? Noooooooooo.
  I understand a dryer not heating, or thermistor going out; however, an electrical failure resulting in a minor fire and minor smoke damage?

NotSoHard said:   It's exactly this reason the dryer and the dishwasher are not left running when we go to sleep.
Or when we leave the house.  

So this wasn't included in the 'dryer catching on fire' class action lawsuit? (Don't remember the brand names, but I thought there were quite a few of them)

dcwilbur said:   
NotSoHard said:   It's exactly this reason the dryer and the dishwasher are not left running when we go to sleep.
Or when we leave the house.  

  So I have some questions about this statement. It seems reasonable on its face, but then you realize that you can't avoid running HVAC when you're sleep in most parts of the country. Everywhere uses 220V for central AC (lol remember thread on no AC in phoenix???), same as electrical dryer, and many places use 220V for heating.

So wtf kind of logic?? And what about the dishwasher? Dishwasher is 120V so are you worried about it flooding your house? In that case, you can just use a water alarm

Dishwashers actually do flood houses.

You might consider the vast difference between an appliance that is designed for 100% usage 24/7, and one that runs more occasionally, like <10x per week.

ksea said:   Dishwashers actually do flood houses.

 

  Thats what a water alarm is for. I don't use a dishwasher , unless there's a dinner party requiring fine china, but my tenants use their dishwashers (many are  10 or 20+ years old) like mofos and exactly one has flooded and that was because they were dumb and forced the door closed when it couldn't close because of an item and there wasn't a seal.

by that logic, you shouldn't use a front loading washer while sleeping or out of house either ...
You might consider the vast difference between an appliance that is designed for 100% usage 24/7, and one that runs more occasionally, like <10x per week.
HVAC is not designed to cycle on/off during use. 

rufflesinc said: So wtf kind of logic??

Ruffled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k


 
 

rufflesinc said:   by that logic, you shouldn't use a front loading washer while sleeping or out of house either ...
Right.  I don't do that either.

 

dcwilbur said:   
rufflesinc said:   by that logic, you shouldn't use a front loading washer while sleeping or out of house either ...
Right.  I don't do that either.

 

  Do you also turn off the heat and A/C when you goto bed too?? My A/C compressor was probably very close to catching on fire less than a month ago. The capacitor went bad but the motor was still trying to start, smelled like burnt when I came home in the afternoon when it was around 90...  good thing it was outside !
=17pxWe advise consumers not to run appliances like a dishwasher overnight, and to be cautious about others, even recharging a cellphone overnight,” said Scott Wolfson, of the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission
nanny govt at its best, does the CPSC or other nanny govt agency provide stricter regulations for heating and cooling vs other major appliances?

rufflesinc said:   
dcwilbur said:   
NotSoHard said:   It's exactly this reason the dryer and the dishwasher are not left running when we go to sleep.
Or when we leave the house.  

  So I have some questions about this statement. It seems reasonable on its face, but then you realize that you can't avoid running HVAC when you're sleep in most parts of the country. Everywhere uses 220V for central AC (lol remember thread on no AC in phoenix???), same as electrical dryer, and many places use 220V for heating.

So wtf kind of logic?? And what about the dishwasher? Dishwasher is 120V so are you worried about it flooding your house? In that case, you can just use a water alarm

  
Mitigating risk.

I agree that running Heating / Cooling equipment is not optional in some parts of the country if you want to maintain comfort. As such, there is an assumed risk of allowing the heating and cooling equipment to run while you sleep. Some devices, like a refrigerator, need to be plugged in 24/7. Yet there is a chance of fire and there is risk, however slight, associated with having the device running. However, running the dishwasher and dryer while sleeping (or leaving them running when you leave the house) is entirely optional. So why take the risk if you don't have to, especially when you would not be available to contain the damage?  If we assume there is a 100% chance that the clothes dryer will catch fire someday, would you rather be awake or asleep when it happens?

With regard to the dishwasher, I'm not worried about flooding. I'm more concerned about someone turning on the drying element and melting oversized Tupperware on the bottom shelf. That does catch fire.

120v vs. 240v? What difference does it make? You could get a fire going with a couple of AA batteries and a stick of gum (specifically the wrapper). (LINK


)

Here are some numbers I pulled from the following document (link provided) that are the average number of home fires with ignition caused by equipment:

Home Structure Fires (Including Fires Coded as Confined Fires), by Equipment Involved in Ignition (EII)
Annual Average of 2007-2011 Structure Fires Reported to U.S. Fire Departments
(PDF LINK)

Dishwasher: 1,121
Refrigerator: 1,550
Air Conditioner: 2,350
Fan: 3,811
Central Furnace: 5,982
Water Heater: 6,414
Microwave: 7,114
Dryer: 13,952
Range: 89,082

rufflesinc said:   
dcwilbur said:   
rufflesinc said:   by that logic, you shouldn't use a front loading washer while sleeping or out of house either ...
Right.  I don't do that either.

 

  Do you also turn off the heat and A/C when you goto bed too??

Of course not.  Look, it's easy enough to refrain from running the dishwasher, clothes washer, dryer, etc., when I'm not home.  Let it go.    

 
 
Mitigating risk.
Then put in a water alarm or smoke alarm.
Some devices, like a refrigerator, need to be plugged in 24/7.
Why do you need a fridge? Just buy a cooler and buy ice from the corner store, like back in the old days
However, running the dishwasher and dryer while sleeping (or leaving them running when you leave the house) is entirely optional. So why take the risk if you don't have to, especially when you would not be available to contain the damage?
we both work and don't have time to do laundry during the week. Running the dryer, especially on low temp for longer times , saves a lot of time
If we assume there is a 100% chance that the clothes dryer will catch fire someday, would you rather be awake or asleep when it happens?
That's quite an assumption. 
Home Structure Fires (Including Fires Coded as Confined Fires), by Equipment Involved in Ignition (EII)
Annual Average of 2007-2011 Structure Fires Reported to U.S. Fire Departments
 (PDF LINK )

Dishwasher: 1,121
Refrigerator: 1,550
Air Conditioner: 2,350
Fan: 3,811
Central Furnace: 5,982
Water Heater: 6,414

Microwave: 7,114
Dryer: 13,952
Range: 89,082 

You got more fire from furnace than diswasher. And I suspect most dryer fire is due to uncleaned lint or putting oil/grease in dryer. And you might as well not cook and eat cold cuts and fruit all day.

rufflesinc said:   <snip>...Thread crap...<snip>

 

  
All I was doing was answering your question about the logic in not running an appliance overnight while sleeping. If you honestly don't get it, I certainly have patience enough to help you understand. However, knowing how you like to treat FatWallet Finance as your own personal sparing ring, I'll bow out and let you win. It's the smart thing for me to do. (like not running my dryer while I sleep)

NotSoHard said:   
rufflesinc said:   <snip>...Thread crap...<snip>

 

  
All I was doing was answering your question about the logic in not running an appliance overnight while sleeping. If you honestly don't get it, I certainly have patience enough to help you understand. However, knowing how you like to treat FatWallet Finance as your own personal sparing ring, I'll bow out and let you win. It's the smart thing for me to do. (like not running my dryer while I sleep)

  If you don't know the difference between 120V and 240V, why don't you touch both and get back to me? 

dcwilbur said:   
rufflesinc said:   
dcwilbur said:   
rufflesinc said:   by that logic, you shouldn't use a front loading washer while sleeping or out of house either ...
Right.  I don't do that either.

 

  Do you also turn off the heat and A/C when you goto bed too??

Of course not.  Look, it's easy enough to refrain from running the dishwasher, clothes washer, dryer, etc., when I'm not home.  Let it go.    

  No. You can avoid using heat and A/C when you're not home. And then either cool it way down or heat it way up and down it off when you goto bed. Yet ... for some reason you don't. Even though their BTUs are much higher than dishwasher or dryer

I just bought new washer and dryer, for some reason the new ones take 50% more time than the old ones from when I was a kid. So because you guys brought it up , i will put water alarm and smoke alarm in the laundry room.

jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 

atikovi said:   
jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 

  
Breakers are there to protect the circuit wire, not the equipment. If there is a fault and too much current flows through the wire, the wire in your walls will heat up like a toaster element. The breaker is there to shut down the current in an over current situation.

NotSoHard said:   
atikovi said:   
jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 

  
Breakers are there to protect the circuit wire, not the equipment. If there is a fault and too much current flows through the wire, the wire in your walls will heat up like a toaster element. The breaker is there to shut down the current in an over current situation.

  Okay, mains electricity 101. The wire in your walls is rated to a certain current and that current rating must meet or exceed the current rating of the breaker it's connected to.

So no, if everything was done to code, you're not going to have a situation where the wires have too much current but not enough to not trip the breaker.

Your equipment wire is also part of the circuit wire so if there's too much current in the former, there's too much current in the latter.

atikovi said:   jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 


30 amp breaker....probably slow blow (fuse term I know). Intermittent arcing could allow for current even slightly above. 30 Amps rms at 240 V rms moves approx 7,500 watts. That's a lot of energy (power over time) to be dissipated as heat, light, or sound. Looks like heat it was.

rufflesinc said:   NotSoHard said:   
rufflesinc said:   <snip>...Thread crap...<snip>

 

  
All I was doing was answering your question about the logic in not running an appliance overnight while sleeping. If you honestly don't get it, I certainly have patience enough to help you understand. However, knowing how you like to treat FatWallet Finance as your own personal sparing ring, I'll bow out and let you win. It's the smart thing for me to do. (like not running my dryer while I sleep)

  If you don't know the difference between 120V and 240V, why don't you touch both and get back to me? 


Voltage is not relevant here. My dryer is 120 volts and I certainly don't run it when we're not around and conscious. Ditto when I had 230 volt dryers.

Most households in the world are only 230 volts for all circuits anyway. I personally would prefer if that was the case in USA too, but that's the way it is. 230v has the benefits of less current draw, smaller wires with less voltage drop and less copper resources needed.

120, 230, 240 volts, etc. can kill a human easily. Bit the discussion was about preventing fires when you or others or property are most vulnerable. A smoke detector can only inform you off a fire underway.

rufflesinc said:   NotSoHard said:   
atikovi said:   
jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 

  
Breakers are there to protect the circuit wire, not the equipment. If there is a fault and too much current flows through the wire, the wire in your walls will heat up like a toaster element. The breaker is there to shut down the current in an over current situation.

  Okay, mains electricity 101. The wire in your walls is rated to a certain current and that current rating must meet or exceed the current rating of the breaker it's connected to.

So no, if everything was done to code, you're not going to have a situation where the wires have too much current but not enough to not trip the breaker.

Your equipment wire is also part of the circuit wire so if there's too much current in the former, there's too much current in the latter.


Incorrect. Circuit protection at the main panel is sized according to the hard wired circuit capacity, not the rating of every appliance plugged into it. Some circuits have multiple devices plugged into them anyway.

jhuflyer said:   
atikovi said:   
jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 


30 amp breaker....probably slow blow (fuse term I know). Intermittent arcing could allow for current even slightly above. 30 Amps rms at 240 V rms moves approx 7,500 watts. That's a lot of energy (power over time) to be dissipated as heat, light, or sound. Looks like heat it was.

If I remember high school physics, in a short circuit, according to Ohms law, the resistance drops to zero (two wires touching) so the amperage goes to infinity, thus the rating of the breaker should be irrelevant whether its 15 amps or 50 amps. Stick both ends of a paperclip into a regular 15 amp wall outlet as well as a 30 amp dryer outlet and both should cause the breaker to trip.

rufflesinc said:   I don't use a dishwasher , unless there's a dinner party requiring fine china, ...Do you buy your fine china at the dollar store?
  

atikovi said:   
jhuflyer said:   
atikovi said:   
jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 


30 amp breaker....probably slow blow (fuse term I know). Intermittent arcing could allow for current even slightly above. 30 Amps rms at 240 V rms moves approx 7,500 watts. That's a lot of energy (power over time) to be dissipated as heat, light, or sound. Looks like heat it was.

If I remember high school physics, in a short circuit, according to Ohms law, the resistance drops to zero (two wires touching) so the amperage goes to infinity, thus the rating of the breaker should be irrelevant whether its 15 amps or 50 amps. Stick both ends of a paperclip into a regular 15 amp wall outlet as well as a 30 amp dryer outlet and both should cause the breaker to trip.

  
It can take a lot less than a paperclip to cause arcing or cause a fire.  Intermittent arcing can cause fires without opening a regular breaker.  This is also why Arc Fault circuit interrupters were invented. 

NEDeals said:   
rufflesinc said:   
NotSoHard said:   
rufflesinc said:   <snip>...Thread crap...<snip>

 

  
All I was doing was answering your question about the logic in not running an appliance overnight while sleeping. If you honestly don't get it, I certainly have patience enough to help you understand. However, knowing how you like to treat FatWallet Finance as your own personal sparing ring, I'll bow out and let you win. It's the smart thing for me to do. (like not running my dryer while I sleep)

  If you don't know the difference between 120V and 240V, why don't you touch both and get back to me? 


Voltage is not relevant here. My dryer is 120 volts and I certainly don't run it when we're not around and conscious. Ditto when I had 230 volt dryers.

Most households in the world are only 230 volts for all circuits anyway. I personally would prefer if that was the case in USA too, but that's the way it is. 230v has the benefits of less current draw, smaller wires with less voltage drop and less copper resources needed.

120, 230, 240 volts, etc. can kill a human easily. Bit the discussion was about preventing fires when you or others or property are most vulnerable. A smoke detector can only inform you off a fire underway.

  
1V can kill a human easily, assuming the amperage is high enough.  But yes, in most cases where are looking at 120 VAC and 240 VAC circuits there is sufficient amperage to get the job done.  

You can take a 10KV shock from static electricity...  or more.   Its not dangerous because its microamps.   I work with/on industrial power bays. (DC and AC inverters plus generators and batteries)  Most of my stuff works on a 48VDC bus.  I spent last weekend helping with recovery from storm outages in NC/SC.
 

NEDeals said:   
rufflesinc said:   
NotSoHard said:   
atikovi said:   
jhuflyer said:   Definitely an electrical connection malfunction near the control boards and relays.
  Not an electrician but looks like a short circuit, which begs the question, why didn't your breaker trip before it started smoking? 

  
Breakers are there to protect the circuit wire, not the equipment. If there is a fault and too much current flows through the wire, the wire in your walls will heat up like a toaster element. The breaker is there to shut down the current in an over current situation.

  Okay, mains electricity 101. The wire in your walls is rated to a certain current and that current rating must meet or exceed the current rating of the breaker it's connected to.

So no, if everything was done to code, you're not going to have a situation where the wires have too much current but not enough to not trip the breaker.

Your equipment wire is also part of the circuit wire so if there's too much current in the former, there's too much current in the latter.


Incorrect. Circuit protection at the main panel is sized according to the hard wired circuit capacity, not the rating of every appliance plugged into it. Some circuits have multiple devices plugged into them anyway.

  What? That's exactly what I said. 

NoMoneyInMyWallet said:   
rufflesinc said:   I don't use a dishwasher , unless there's a dinner party requiring fine china, ...
Do you buy your fine china at the dollar store?
  

  no, we got them as wedding gifts.

NEDeals said:   
rufflesinc said:   
NotSoHard said:   
rufflesinc said:   <snip>...Thread crap...<snip>

 

  
All I was doing was answering your question about the logic in not running an appliance overnight while sleeping. If you honestly don't get it, I certainly have patience enough to help you understand. However, knowing how you like to treat FatWallet Finance as your own personal sparing ring, I'll bow out and let you win. It's the smart thing for me to do. (like not running my dryer while I sleep)

  If you don't know the difference between 120V and 240V, why don't you touch both and get back to me? 


Voltage is not relevant here. My dryer is 120 volts and I certainly don't run it when we're not around and conscious. Ditto when I had 230 volt dryers.

Most households in the world are only 230 volts for all circuits anyway. I personally would prefer if that was the case in USA too, but that's the way it is. 230v has the benefits of less current draw, smaller wires with less voltage drop and less copper resources needed.


 

  My master electrician was pretty clear, 120v you can likely survive without damage, 240v probably not
120, 230, 240 volts, etc. can kill a human easily. Bit the discussion was about preventing fires when you or others or property are most vulnerable. A smoke detector can only inform you off a fire underway.
And if that's the case, you should unplug your refridgerator at night and when not home. You should not run heating or cooling at night and when not home. Might as well just shut off the main power when at night and when not home. 

A smoke detector  , as its name suggests, informs you when there's smoke, so many cases will alert you prior to fire fuly blown. Moreover unless you are staring at the dryer or dishwasher the whole time, it's likely that you'd be alerted by smoke detector

Home Structure Fires (Including Fires Coded as Confined Fires), by Equipment Involved in Ignition (EII)
Annual Average of 2007-2011 Structure Fires Reported to U.S. Fire Departments
 (PDF LINK )

Dishwasher: 1,121
Refrigerator: 1,550
Air Conditioner: 2,350
Fan: 3,811

Central Furnace: 5,982
Water Heater: 6,414
Microwave: 7,114
Dryer: 13,952
Range: 89,082 

Oh great, I have that same dryer.

string3599 said:   Oh great, I have that same dryer.
  just put a smoke detector in the laundry room and call it good

First world problems. Our apartment doesn't have a dishwasher or washer/dryer.

matrix5k said:   First world problems. Our apartment doesn't have a dishwasher or washer/dryer.
  Do you wash your clothes by hand and line dry them?

rufflesinc said:   matrix5k said:   First world problems. Our apartment doesn't have a dishwasher or washer/dryer.
  Do you wash your clothes by hand and line dry them?


No we go to a laundromat.

matrix5k said:   
rufflesinc said:   
matrix5k said:   First world problems. Our apartment doesn't have a dishwasher or washer/dryer.
  Do you wash your clothes by hand and line dry them?


No we go to a laundromat.

  do you sit there to make sure your clothes don't catch on fire?

rufflesinc said:   
NEDeals said:   
rufflesinc said:   
NotSoHard said:   
rufflesinc said:   <snip>...Thread crap...<snip>

 

  
All I was doing was answering your question about the logic in not running an appliance overnight while sleeping. If you honestly don't get it, I certainly have patience enough to help you understand. However, knowing how you like to treat FatWallet Finance as your own personal sparing ring, I'll bow out and let you win. It's the smart thing for me to do. (like not running my dryer while I sleep)

  If you don't know the difference between 120V and 240V, why don't you touch both and get back to me? 


Voltage is not relevant here. My dryer is 120 volts and I certainly don't run it when we're not around and conscious. Ditto when I had 230 volt dryers.

Most households in the world are only 230 volts for all circuits anyway. I personally would prefer if that was the case in USA too, but that's the way it is. 230v has the benefits of less current draw, smaller wires with less voltage drop and less copper resources needed.


 

  My master electrician was pretty clear, 120v you can likely survive without damage, 240v probably not
120, 230, 240 volts, etc. can kill a human easily. Bit the discussion was about preventing fires when you or others or property are most vulnerable. A smoke detector can only inform you off a fire underway.
And if that's the case, you should unplug your refridgerator at night and when not home. You should not run heating or cooling at night and when not home. Might as well just shut off the main power when at night and when not home. 

 


Regardless of what someone's "master electrician" says, 120 volts can easily kill a human. So can 230 volts. As previously noted, it is the current that is deadly.
http://nycosh.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/FS-Electrical-FS-I-... 

Regardless, we were talking about running appliances before the red herring diversion to voltage numbers. I can easily decide not to run cleaning appliances when we are not available to monitor them, and do so. Comparing that risk to refrigerators, heating equipment, etc. is silly. 

Skipping 45 Messages...
Update:

Maytag is picking up the unit and agreed to an equitable monetary trade. Fire report and logical debate concluded negotiations.



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