Deposited large check in checking account, funds show available but bank won't do outgoing wire transfer for 2-3 days

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I deposited a large check (several hundred thousand dollars) in a checking account last Friday. Much to my surprise, the funds showed as available on Saturday (especially surprising since it was only deposited at 5:30pm, the bank is open until 7pm). My wife tried to do outgoing wire transfer of the funds today to a couple of brokerage houses and the branch manager was told that she needed to wait until Wednesday or Thursday before it could be processed. Is this legal? I understand that the bank wants to make sure the check doesn't get returned, but if the funds are showing as available, shouldn't I be able to withdraw it? Makes me wonder what would have happened if I'd written a check against the funds.

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I've seen a wire recalled. It can happen.

scrouds (Aug. 06, 2016 @ 10:27a) |

In the US, wire is not sent between customers. It is sent between banks which means that is is journaled onto customer's... (more)

EvilCapitalist (Aug. 07, 2016 @ 8:45a) |

It didn't say anything on the deposit slip and as I've previously said, their website claimed it was fully available the... (more)

billrubin (Aug. 07, 2016 @ 7:31p) |

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Very common, every bank has a policy on this. Completely legit, more here:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/regcc/regcc.htm

"Delaying Funds Availability

For certain types of deposits, Regulation CC permits financial institutions to delay, for a "reasonable period of time," the availability of funds. A "reasonable" time period is generally defined as one additional business day (making a total of two business days) for on-us checks, and five additional business days (total of seven) for local checks; your institution may impose longer exception holds, but you may have the burden of proving that they are "reasonable."

If you decide to hold funds beyond the period specified in your institution's general availability policy, you must give the customer a notice at the time of the deposit explaining why the funds are being held and when they will be available. If the deposit is not made in person to an employee of your institution or if you decide to extend the time when deposited funds will be made available after the deposit has been made, you must mail or deliver the notice to the customer not later than the first business day after the banking day on which the deposit is made.

Deposits of cash and electronic payments are not eligible for exception holds. The six types of deposits that are eligible are

Large deposits (greater than $5,000)--Any amount exceeding $5,000 may be held. Your institution must make the first $5,000 of the deposit available for withdrawal according to your availability policy and the remainder within the "reasonable" time frames discussed above."

First world problems. LOL!

tennis8363 said:   Very common, every bank has a policy on this. Completely legit, more here:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/regcc/regcc.htm

Thanks. Just seems strange that their website would show the funds as available, when they actually aren't.

I found this in the bank's availability of funds section of their account agreement. I guess I should check the deposit slip and see if anything was printed there about delayed availability. It also says that there is no cutoff if the deposit is made with an employee, so that explains why it showed available on Saturday (although clearly it wasn't).

Longer Delays May Apply

Funds you deposit by check may be delayed for a longer period under the following circumstances:
• We believe a check you deposit will not be paid
• You deposit checks totaling more than $5,000 on any one day
• You redeposit a check that has been returned unpaid
• You have overdrawn your account repeatedly in the last six months
• There is an emergency, such as failure of communications of computer equipment..

We will notify you if we delay your ability to withdraw funds for any of these reasons, and we will tell you when the funds will be available, unless, at the time of notice, we do not know when the funds will be available because we do not know the duration of the emergency. They will generallybe available no later than the sixth Business Day after the day indicated by the above availability schedules

tennis8363 said:   Very common, every bank has a policy on this. Completely legit, more here:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/regcc/regcc.htm 

"Delaying Funds Availability"

  The regulation you quote clearly "permits" but does not "require" those hold periods.   And, the bank has informed OP that the hold period is over and the funds are already available.  IMO, OP has a reasonable gripe that their bank is incorrectly reporting the funds as available with some invisible hold on it that only appears when a transfer's set up.  Since they're shown as available, any reasonable person would assume that means they are not in a delayed availability period.  So, yes it's a valid hold period, but the bank has some customer service and/or website issues to straighten out where they're incorrectly marking the funds as available when they're not.

I won't use a credit union where I have accounts left over (from a previous auto loan) because of crazy hold periods.  Tried to deposit a small check (<$1000) from a mortgage bank escrow overage refund, and they said 10 business days.... Go to my usual bank and it's all available for immediate withdrawal.  And I'm not an especially "great" customer at my normal bank either, generally keep <$1k balances and occasional $XXk transfers to/from brokerage.

cherry3m said:   First world problems. LOL!
Yeah, well I would have had it deposited in the higher interest (0.65%) savings account rather than checking (s 0.25%) if I knew it would be spending a few days on hold at the bank. At least the checking account it's in pays something.

billrubin said:   
cherry3m said:   First world problems. LOL!
Yeah, well I would have had it deposited in the higher interest (0.65%) savings account rather than checking (s 0.25%) if I knew it would be spending a few days on hold at the bank. At least it pays something.

  Other than the fact that the online access shows the funds as available, clearly you didnt expect the funds to be immediately available at the time you deposited, did you? Why did you not simply deposit it into savings if the lost interest was a big concern? Or at least ask the teller when the funds would be made available when you made the deposit.
You can now move the funds into savings (or ask the bank to do it for you if you cannot do it yourself) if the lost interest is still important to you

 

Bend3r said:    So, yes it's a valid hold period, but the bank has some customer service and/or website issues to straighten out where they're incorrectly marking the funds as available when they're not.
 

  You nailed the problem exactly. They need to straighten the website and/or customer service issue. I am sure the OP has been around long enough to realize that this type of hold is not uncommon.

fwuser12 said:    Other than the fact that the online access shows the funds as available, clearly you didnt expect the funds to be immediately available at the time you deposited, did you? Why did you not simply deposit it into savings if the lost interest was a big concern? Or at least ask the teller when the funds would be made available when you made the deposit.
You can now move the funds into savings (or ask the bank to do it for you if you cannot do it yourself) if the lost interest is still important to you
 

I figured it would be easier to have it in the checking account to do the wire transfer. The teller was apparently not sure about availability (my wife made the deposit), she thought it might be available on Tuesday. And I would not have made an issue of it had the website not claimed it was available.

As for moving the funds to savings, I figure that transfering between accounts at this point only adds the possibility of confusing the matter.

Bend3r said:   
tennis8363 said:   Very common, every bank has a policy on this. Completely legit, more here:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/regcc/regcc.htm 

"Delaying Funds Availability"

  The regulation you quote clearly "permits" but does not "require" those hold periods.   And, the bank has informed OP that the hold period is over and the funds are already available.  IMO, OP has a reasonable gripe that their bank is incorrectly reporting the funds as available with some invisible hold on it that only appears when a transfer's set up.  Since they're shown as available, any reasonable person would assume that means they are not in a delayed availability period.  So, yes it's a valid hold period, but the bank has some customer service and/or website issues to straighten out where they're incorrectly marking the funds as available when they're not.

I won't use a credit union where I have accounts left over (from a previous auto loan) because of crazy hold periods.  Tried to deposit a small check (<$1000) from a mortgage bank escrow overage refund, and they said 10 business days.... Go to my usual bank and it's all available for immediate withdrawal.  And I'm not an especially "great" customer at my normal bank either, generally keep <$1k balances and occasional $XXk transfers to/from brokerage.

  I've dealt with a couple of banks that have different levels of "currently available". Such as if I deposit $50,000 and it shows as current, I can write a check to someone else for that amount and it will clear. A wire won't be allowed though.

I had a similar issue with Chase. A large incoming ACH was listed as pending, with the funds included in the available balance (that's how incoming ACH / direct deposits always work at Chase: on the day of the deposit the funds become available, with the transaction pending, and the next day it shows up as posted, as of the previous day). A branch would not let me use the funds for a wire transfer. No talking to the branch manager or inquiring what "available" meant to them could change their minds. So I went to another branch 2 blocks away, where they did the wire without any problems.

olegos said:   I had a similar issue with Chase. No talking to the branch manager or inquiring what "available" meant to them could change their minds. So I went to another branch 2 blocks away, where they did the wire without any problems.
  Did you try doing the wire online?  I wonder if the funds would have been available.  I assume you get free wires, but if you didn't it would have been cheaper to do via the web.

Rasheed

rasheedb said:     Did you try doing the wire online?  I wonder if the funds would have been available.  I assume you get free wires, but if you didn't it would have been cheaper to do via the web.
 

I did. There was no problem with funds availability, but Chase's limit for online wires was only $10K, and I needed more.

I also had a weird hold quoted by Chase. I think it was 7-10 days. In reality, it took 2 days. Hopefully, your money frees up sooner than expected also.

Bend3r said:   
tennis8363 said:   Very common, every bank has a policy on this. Completely legit, more here:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/regcc/regcc.htm 

"Delaying Funds Availability"

  The regulation you quote clearly "permits" but does not "require" those hold periods.   And, the bank has informed OP that the hold period is over and the funds are already available.  IMO, OP has a reasonable gripe that their bank is incorrectly reporting the funds as available with some invisible hold on it that only appears when a transfer's set up.  Since they're shown as available, any reasonable person would assume that means they are not in a delayed availability period.  So, yes it's a valid hold period, but the bank has some customer service and/or website issues to straighten out where they're incorrectly marking the funds as available when they're not.

The hold period would be valid, but the lack of any notice regarding the hold (let alone showing it as being available) is not legal. It actually sounds like the funds are available, and they're just refusing to process a wire request for such a large amount, probably relative to the account's average balance. More like an account restriction (formal, or just at the branch's discretion) than a hold on the deposit. I suspect an ACH pull or a written check for any amount would be withdrawn without issue.

OP - did you ask if a lesser amount could be sent now, or if you could pull it out from an external source?
  

olegos said:   I had a similar issue with Chase. A large incoming ACH was listed as pending, with the funds included in the available balance (that's how incoming ACH / direct deposits always work at Chase: on the day of the deposit the funds become available, with the transaction pending, and the next day it shows up as posted, as of the previous day). A branch would not let me use the funds for a wire transfer. No talking to the branch manager or inquiring what "available" meant to them could change their minds. So I went to another branch 2 blocks away, where they did the wire without any problems.
  I'm thinking this is more accurate - they aren't holding the deposited funds, they're declining the wire request.

The reason (from bank's perspective) why they won't let you wire is that it takes longer than just a couple of days to verify whether the check is genuine, whether the full check amount is available in the payer's account and whether the check is authorized by the payer. Contract this to the fact all wire transfers are real time, irrevocable and final once they hit the recipient's account.

So if the bank lets you wire the funds tomorrow for the check that you deposit today and if it turns out that the check was bad, the bank is on the hook for the funds.

That's also why banks frown if you add funds in your account via ACH pull and then quickly do a wire even if the funds are "available," when you initiate the wire. Because ACH pulls, like checks, can be reversed.

Wire transfers on the other hand, are impossible to reverse.

billrubin said:   
cherry3m said:   First world problems. LOL!
Yeah, well I would have had it deposited in the higher interest (0.65%) savings account rather than checking (s 0.25%) if I knew it would be spending a few days on hold at the bank. At least the checking account it's in pays something.

  You do realize that the daily interest difference between the two accounts on your deposit, assuming you deposited five hndred thousand dollars, would only be $5.48, don't you?  Now I suppose if it was a ten plus million dollar deposit, an extra hundred dollars a day would be nice!    

Glitch99 said:     I'm thinking this is more accurate - they aren't holding the deposited funds, they're declining the wire request.
But they said the reason they refused the wire request, in my case, was that the transaction with the incoming funds hadn't posted yet. (That was an ACH push from another bank.)

So, my wife went back to the bank today. They tried to contact the bank that the deposited check was from (Capital One) but got recordings and were unable to speak to a real person (some irony there, I suppose), so they said they would not do a wire until noon tomorrow, which will be basically a full week (minus a few hours). I guess I should have just written checks and deposited them where I wanted the money to go.

I hope the bank doesn't come up with another excuse tomorrow.

Sigh.

I don't even understand why you even thought your funds on that kind of deposit would be available without a hold until the funds were verified, unless you had enough in your account to cover said deposit until it cleared that they could put a hold on... And yes, you should've deposited the funds in the destination you wanted them in if that was possible to avoid all of this.

cme4oil said:   1) I don't even understand why you even thought your funds on that kind of deposit would be available without a hold until the funds were verified, unless you had enough in your account to cover said deposit until it cleared that they could put a hold on... 2) And yes, you should've deposited the funds in the destination you wanted them in if that was possible to avoid all of this.
1) Because I thought that normal hold times applied to the deposit. And once again, the funds showed 100% available when I checked the account on Saturday morning.

2) Because the bank we took it to was local and we were able to deposit it the same day it was received, and this bank offers free outgoing wire transfers based on the type of account we have. I wanted to split the money between two different accounts, so I would have had to transfer some money around anyway (and we were not offered the option of 2 separate checks from the estate). I wasn't going to be able to do a mobile deposit of a check that size (Fidelity's limit is $100k), so I would have had to wait until Monday, then drive to the local Fidelity branch (since the other firm has nothing around me) and then figure out how to get the other piece moved over (likely via ACH or paying a fee for wire transfer). Complicating things further, the check was in my wife's name and she could not go with me to Fidelity, so she would have had to endorse it in advance, which I didn't feel comfortable doing, although I guess if she'd done "for deposit only" it would have been safe.

I thought my plan was excellent -- get it in the bank right away, get free wire transfers to quickly move it to the other two institutions. It was the one week hold I was not expecting. The teller gave no indication that it would be that long. Even the branch manager told my wife it would be available on Wednesday or Thursday based on info given to her by corporate, and that was only after she tried to do the wire, so she clearly did not expect it to be held for this long, either.

I guess I've learned from this experience, although I'm still not sure what a better solution would have been (other than getting 2 checks).

exclusivelysid said:   The reason (from bank's perspective) why they won't let you wire is that it takes longer than just a couple of days to verify whether the check is genuine, whether the full check amount is available in the payer's account and whether the check is authorized by the payer. Contract this to the fact all wire transfers are real time, irrevocable and final once they hit the recipient's account.
 

Not since Check21.
Wire transfers on the other hand, are impossible to reverse.
Wires are possible to reverse.
  

EvilCapitalist said:   
exclusivelysid said:   The reason (from bank's perspective) why they won't let you wire is that it takes longer than just a couple of days to verify whether the check is genuine, whether the full check amount is available in the payer's account and whether the check is authorized by the payer. Contract this to the fact all wire transfers are real time, irrevocable and final once they hit the recipient's account.
Not since Check21.

So does that mean that their holding the money for a week should not be necessary? Can I file a complaint against them?

Here's today's story (my wife didn't have to go in, the banker checked on his own and called her). There is some list (I guess of bad checks) that comes out at 3pm. If the check isn't on that list, they'll do the wires.The banker is filling out the form now but won't submit it until he gets the OK at 3pm. Hopefully it gets credited to my account in time to do something with it today. Otherwise I'd be better off leaving it in the bank account for the weekend and do the wire first thing Monday morning.

On second thought, I'm just going to have them do the transfers today. Not worth worrying about a few dollars when I just want to get this over with.

billrubin said:   
EvilCapitalist said:   
exclusivelysid said:   The reason (from bank's perspective) why they won't let you wire is that it takes longer than just a couple of days to verify whether the check is genuine, whether the full check amount is available in the payer's account and whether the check is authorized by the payer. Contract this to the fact all wire transfers are real time, irrevocable and final once they hit the recipient's account.
Not since Check21.

So does that mean that their holding the money for a week should not be necessary? Can I file a complaint against them?


Yes, OCC.

As it was described above, banks do not have to make money *available* immediately. If the money is unavailable you would have:

Ledger balance X/Statement Balance( Most likely X )/Available Balance Y where Y is less than X.

If your ledger balance is X and your available balance is X then the money is available and you should be able to do with it whatever you want. You may not be able to withdraw entire X in cash because bank may not simply have that entire amount in the bank notes but the entire amount can be wired or a cashier's check can be issued for any amount up to X or you can write a check for up to X.

EvilCapitalist said:   
billrubin said:   So does that mean that their holding the money for a week should not be necessary? Can I file a complaint against them?
 

Yes, OCC.
 

I just found this page and I have a feeling they'd be able to justify their 5 day hold (I've highlighted the relevant pieces).Are there exceptions to the funds availability (hold) schedule?Yes. The regulation provides six exceptions that allow banks to exceed the maximum hold periods in the availability schedules. The exceptions are considered safeguards against the risk associated with each. These are the exceptions:

  • checks deposited to new accounts
  • large deposits ($5,000 or more in checks in any one day)
  • redeposited checks
  • deposits made by check to accounts that are repeatedly overdrawn
  • deposits of checks for which the bank doubts collectability
  • deposits made under certain emergency conditions

In the case of exceptions, the regulation provides that banks may extend the availability schedule by a reasonable period of time. Here are some examples:

  • An extension of one business day for next-day availability items
  • An extension of up to five business days for large deposits

You are not listening.

If your funds are listed as *available* online, they are *available*, not "kind of available".

OP, which bank is this?  Are you sure you're not just reading the statement screen incorrectly?

btw, this is what my bank says in a popup next to "Available Balance"
bofa said: Your Available Balance is the amount of money in your checking or savings account that is currently available for you. It includes all Cleared and Processing transactions. Keep in mind that any transactions you have made but Bank of America has not yet received need to be subtracted from your Available Balance for you to know the exact amount of money you have to spend or withdraw.

The Available Balance does not include:

Any transaction that has not been received by the bank (check, recurring Debit Card transactions, ACH)
Amount of a deposit not currently available, including holds
Please reference “Tips to help avoid fees”, located on the Information & Services tab for more information about managing your fees.


It doesn't say how you would actually know how much to subtract, though. 

What does your bank's Deposit Account Agreement say as to Funds Availability?

libralibra said:   OP, which bank is this?  Are you sure you're not just reading the statement screen incorrectly?

btw, this is what my bank says in a popup next to "Available Balance"
bofa said: Your Available Balance is the amount of money in your checking or savings account that is currently available for you. It includes all Cleared and Processing transactions. Keep in mind that any transactions you have made but Bank of America has not yet received need to be subtracted from your Available Balance for you to know the exact amount of money you have to spend or withdraw.

The Available Balance does not include:

Any transaction that has not been received by the bank (check, recurring Debit Card transactions, ACH)
Amount of a deposit not currently available, including holds
Please reference “Tips to help avoid fees”, located on the Information & Services tab for more information about managing your fees.


It doesn't say how you would actually know how much to subtract, though. 

  Uhhh... it does say.  It says not to subtract anything.  It says any holds or not currently available is not included in the "available" amount shown.   It only says to subtract transactions YOU have made or initiated that they don't show yet (written checks, ACH pulls, etc)

Bend3r said:   
libralibra said:   OP, which bank is this?  Are you sure you're not just reading the statement screen incorrectly?

btw, this is what my bank says in a popup next to "Available Balance"
bofa said: Your Available Balance is the amount of money in your checking or savings account that is currently available for you. It includes all Cleared and Processing transactions. Keep in mind that any transactions you have made but Bank of America has not yet received need to be subtracted from your Available Balance for you to know the exact amount of money you have to spend or withdraw.

The Available Balance does not include:

Any transaction that has not been received by the bank (check, recurring Debit Card transactions, ACH)
Amount of a deposit not currently available, including holds
Please reference “Tips to help avoid fees”, located on the Information & Services tab for more information about managing your fees.


It doesn't say how you would actually know how much to subtract, though. 

  Uhhh... it does say.  It says not to subtract anything.  It says any holds or not currently available is not included in the "available" amount shown.   It only says to subtract transactions YOU have made or initiated that they don't show yet (written checks, ACH pulls, etc)

  
I was talking about the first paragraph.  It seems to say something can be 'Cleared' or 'Processing', be included in Avail Bal, but not actually be available to you.  It doesn't seem to be talking about 'holds' which are explicitly mentioned in para2 as not being included in the Avail Balance.

(btw, not sure about your last sentence.  Are you saying e.g. you drop a deposit slip in the mail and bofa hasn't gotten it yet?  Then it wouldn't be in the Avail Bal anyway, so nothing to subtract, right?)

Alliant CU made me wait 2 weeks for a very very large cashiers check once.

libralibra said:     
I was talking about the first paragraph.  It seems to say something can be 'Cleared' or 'Processing', be included in Avail Bal, but not actually be available to you.  It doesn't seem to be talking about 'holds' which are explicitly mentioned in para2 as not being included in the Avail Balance.

(btw, not sure about your last sentence.  Are you saying e.g. you drop a deposit slip in the mail and bofa hasn't gotten it yet?  Then it wouldn't be in the Avail Bal anyway, so nothing to subtract, right?)

  No, that's not what it says. it says something can be processing but it is available to you if it's in that balance. It says if it's not cleared or there's a hold on it it will be excluded from that balance, not included in it.

It's saying if you write out checks or setup withdrawals externally that they don't know about yet, then it's not in the balance.

1. You go check your balance, shows $100 available.
2. You write a check for $40 at the grocery store.
3. You submit a $50 payment to Citibank on Citi's website.
4. You immediately go back to their website to check balance, it will still show $100 available. You have to subtract transactions YOU have made that they haven't received, to realize you only have $10 available to spend, not $100.

Bend3r said:   
  No, that's not what it says. it says something can be processing but it is available to you if it's in that balance. It says if it's not cleared or there's a hold on it it will not be excluded from that balance.

It's saying if you write out checks or setup withdrawals externally that they don't know about yet, then it's not in the balance.

1. You go check your balance, shows $100 available.
2. You write a check for $40 at the grocery store.
3. You submit a $50 payment to Citibank on Citi's website.
4. You immediately go back to their website to check balance, it will still show $100 available. You have to subtract transactions YOU have made that they haven't received, to realize you only have $10 available to spend, not $100.

Yeah, I see what you mean now.  I was interpreting "has not received" in that sentence as in funds not received yet for a deposit, but I think you're right.

as for the OP, if he deposited this in person, the receipt should clearly show what the holds are.  I have a receipt for a deposit I made recently.  It says the first $200 is avail immediately, $4800 held for 2 days, and then the rest held for 9 days.  It then prints a long explanation and even says that if "you did not receive this notice" when you made the deposit, then any overdraft or NSF fees would be refunded - probably required by some govt regulation.
 

They are required to tell you, but the notice might come in the mail a few days later.

EvilCapitalist said:   
Wires are possible to reverse.
  

  
How so? I'm talking about it from the sender's perspective and I'm assuming that the sender authorized the transfer and that the receiving bank confirmed (accepted) it.

Since wires are real time, once they're sent you'd be competing against the reaction time of the receiving bank and if they've accepted, the money is gone, except some very very limited circumstances such as incorrect amount or duplicate transaction.

I've seen a wire recalled. It can happen.

exclusivelysid said:   
EvilCapitalist said:   
Wires are possible to reverse.
  

  
How so? I'm talking about it from the sender's perspective and I'm assuming that the sender authorized the transfer and that the receiving bank confirmed (accepted) it.

Since wires are real time, once they're sent you'd be competing against the reaction time of the receiving bank and if they've accepted, the money is gone, except some very very limited circumstances such as incorrect amount or duplicate transaction.

In the US, wire is not sent between customers. It is sent between banks which means that is is journaled onto customer's DDAs. Ability to reverse wires is based on customer's agreement with the bank.  Banks themselves can reverse a wire for up to 180 days.
 

libralibra said:   as for the OP, if he deposited this in person, the receipt should clearly show what the holds are.  I have a receipt for a deposit I made recently.  It says the first $200 is avail immediately, $4800 held for 2 days, and then the rest held for 9 days.  It then prints a long explanation and even says that if "you did not receive this notice" when you made the deposit, then any overdraft or NSF fees would be refunded - probably required by some govt regulation.
It didn't say anything on the deposit slip and as I've previously said, their website claimed it was fully available the following day.

Anyway, they finally did the wires on Friday afternoon after 3. I got email from Fidelity that the money was in the account at 3:30 and I was able to get my trades in before the market closed. Sadly, the other wire went to Pershing and it did not show up in my account on Friday (still isn't there). They'll have to look for it tomorrow morning.

Update: they found the Pershing money. Somehow the brokerage account number was missing from the wire instructions. They were there when the guy entered it (and printed out the wire form after doing so) , so I don't know if it got deleted before sending, or someone at BNY messed up when receiving it.

BTW the bank was People's United. The branch people are friendly enough but the back office/corporate people leave something to be desired.



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