Victim of CC fraud, vendor can refuse to give you order information on "your" order?

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Interesting question so figure I would post about this one. Much to my surprise I called to question a charge on my CC as I do place orders with this online store, but did not place THIS order. They proceeded to look up the order using the charge date, amount, and last 4 of my card, as well as my billing address. All good so far. I said well this is probably fraud as I didn't place this order. I then proceed to ask where it was shipped to, and what IP address the order was placed from as I was unaware of "where I was when apparently I placed this order" and they said they would only release that information to me with a police order or court order???

I don't know the law in this situation as I've never had anyone refuse to tell me this before. They are not concerned with me verifying my identity, or being the cardholder they just said they do not release ANY information EVER about what may be a fraudulent order, even to the victim/cardholder??

In my business we gladly tell this to the real account holder to help them deal with the fraud. Does this sound right? Sounds like a crock of horse crap to me and I can't see how it would be legal to even refuse to disclose to the purchaser, after confirming their identity, information on their order which they paid for.

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How would the vendor know that OP is the real credit card owner and not someone fishing for information for future ident... (more)

seawolf21 (Sep. 16, 2016 @ 1:11p) |

Why are you assuming the credit card company won't give the same information to the cops?  If the perp is on the other s... (more)

qcumber98 (Sep. 17, 2016 @ 3:14a) |

I think he is assuming the cops won't bother to do ANY investigating -- just provide a report for insurance/credit card ... (more)

RedWolfe01 (Sep. 18, 2016 @ 10:40p) |

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Your mistake was identifying it as a fraudulent order before receiving all of the information about it.

Yeah I get that, but still begs the question of whether that legally changes a consumer's right to this information. As a merchant and business owner myself, I am not under this impression nor have ever heard this, or have been instructed to this by VISA/MC, etc.

Why would you possibly need such information?  You've reported the order as being fraudulent, and you should dispute the fraudulent charge on your credit card.  Neither requires the IP address the order was placed from, and there's nothing more for you to do.

Because it isn't your problem.  Call the vendor and report the fraud.  If they can cancel the order, they will, and they will turn it over to their loss prevention department.  If they can't do anything about it, you call the credit card issuer.  They'll handle it from there.

I can see a scenario for vigilante justice where someone gets in the car and drives to the bad actor's delivery address to settle the score.  Bad things happen next...
 

As it's a card I do not use I may very well find that an order was being placed by someone I personally know, who would have obtained the card details directly from my wallet. Of course if we leave this to the "system" nothing will be done about it, and 99/100 times I would not waste my time either but this one in particular I'm curious about due to that, and also where the order was shipped. The merchant is a place I do normally do business with, small company. 

Not worried about the liability of any of that.. just would like to find out if this is in fact someone I personally know, and if so, ensure they're prosecuted

dcwilbur said:   Because it isn't your problem.  Call the vendor and report the fraud.  If they can cancel the order, they will, and they will turn it over to their loss prevention department.  If they can't do anything about it, you call the credit card issuer.  They'll handle it from there.

I can see a scenario for vigilante justice where someone gets in the car and drives to the bad actor's delivery address to settle the score.  Bad things happen next...

  Reminds me of this story (which has it's own FWF thread):

http://fusion.net/story/214995/find-my-phone-apps-lead-to-wrong-...

I'm not condoning your amateur detective work, but if it is an online store that you already do business with, is the order in your order history?  That is, did the perp hack your store account and use the saved credit card in the account to order goods shipped to another address, or did the perp steal your credit card number and just happen to buy something from a store where you already shop?  If the former, the delivery address is probably in the order history.

dcwilbur said:   I'm not condoning your amateur detective work, but if it is an online store that you already do business with, is the order in your order history?  That is, did the perp hack your store account and use the saved credit card in the account to order goods shipped to another address, or did the perp steal your credit card number and just happen to buy something from a store where you already shop?  If the former, the delivery address is probably in the order history.
  This.
Perhaps it is the latter since the OP probably does not know anything about the order (including what was ordered) but only about what appeared on his CC.
"They proceeded to look up the order using the charge date, amount, and last 4 of my card, as well as my billing address".

If so, it is all the more reason why the merchant is not willing to divulge any details about the order --- it is not OP's order; just his CC was used to place that order.

Stop doing detective work, this is what the police and credit card companies are supposed to do. What are you gonna do IF you find the guy? Beat him up? Tell him to stop using unauthorized credit card information? Turning him into the police won't do anything, since they probably don't care. If they do care, and the guy is running some crazy credit card fraud ring, you will want to get on a witness protection program.

Lots of potential downfall here and not worth spending the time or effort digging further. Call the CC company, get a new card, call it a day. It's also very unlikely they are shipping the stuff to their own house. It's likely going to some unidentified PO Box, a vacant home, or an unknowing party.

Very simple flowchart:

Has the vendor refunded your money?

If YES, then you're done.

If NO, then report a fraudulent charge to your credit card company.

Then, you're done.

A similar issue when someone files a fake tax return using your SSN and other information to get a fraudulent refund. When you try to get information regarding where and how the return was filed, you get "stonewalled". They just issue you a PIN as a solution.

Lots of time the person receiving the shipment is innocent. The perp basically lists item on eBay /Amazon then drop ships the merchandise from another store using stolen credit card numbers.

Vendor's do not have the right to give out private information EVEN if you are the person who paid for it.
They can cancel the card if you request and possibly give you a refund.

The reason is because you're not actually involved in the loss. They and the CC company are.

dcwilbur said:   
I can see a scenario for vigilante justice where someone gets in the car and drives to the bad actor's delivery address to settle the score.  Bad things happen next...

  It's bad enough when cops go to the home of somebody who's used as an unsuspecting mail drop for criminals and open up a big can of vigilante/extrajudicial justice on his family without amateurs doing it too.  

ilikebtmoney said:   As it's a card I do not use I may very well find that an order was being placed by someone I personally know, who would have obtained the card details directly from my wallet. Of course if we leave this to the "system" nothing will be done about it, and 99/100 times I would not waste my time either but this one in particular I'm curious about due to that, and also where the order was shipped.Once you told them you did not place such order, details such as Name and Address are subject to all kinds of privacy laws

ilikebtmoney said:   Sounds like a crock of horse crap to me and I can't see how it would be legal to even refuse to disclose to the purchaserwhy would it not be legal ?

xoneinax said:   
ilikebtmoney said:   Sounds like a crock of horse crap to me and I can't see how it would be legal to even refuse to disclose to the purchaser
why would it not be legal ?

  Because OP wants to beat down the 'ex gf' who is using his cards.

Let's pretend the bank gives you the information you asked for. Now what, Sherlock?

This happened to me the first time I had a string of fraudulent charges. It was on an amex, so no big deal, and the CC took care of everything. They'd auto-magically blocked most of the charges at or near the POS, and reversed a few that did go through. But there were a couple they missed, and those showed up on my account for a while.

Thinking I'd be awesome and catch this guy, I started calling the public numbers for the companies. There were only 4 or 5 charges I could look into. All but one of them declined to give me any information, including the phone number provided, the address the items (mostly shoes) were sent to, etc.

But one company did. I just asked the CSR to confirm the shipping address that was related to my name and the total billed. He did. I asked for the phone number on the order. He gave it to me. Then, suddenly, he realized I must be asking about a fraudulent charge, and said something like, "Oh, I probably wasn't supposed to give you that information." I confirmed it wasn't my order, wasn't my address or phone number, and I'd had other fraudulent activity on the account. He said he'd make a note of it in their system, and we ended the call.

Nothing ever came of it. I tried to call the number but it wasn't active. I looked up the address, and I decided it was a property that was likely in foreclosure. Maybe someone got some shoes. Maybe they didn't. I don't know. I don't care.

I don't understand the Vigilante mentality. Even if somebody answered what would you say to them? They clearly have more information about you then you have about them. Why risk them continuing to mess with your credit?

I could understand if it was someone you knew, but if its just a stranger what were you going to do when he answered the phone?

When I see a fraudulent transaction, I always call the merchant to let them know and possibly prevent them from shipping a fraudulent order. But there's no point in trying to investigate further; as much as I despise thieves and want them to be prosecuted, my efforts are not likely to make a practical difference and thus it is not worth the time and energy.

If they give out the information, and you order a hit on that person, the retailer is now liable.

qcumber98 said:   Let's pretend the bank gives you the information you asked for. Now what, Sherlock?
  Give it to the cops so they might actually do something?  Fraud's pretty low on the list, so unless you present them with all the details of the perp with a nice little bow, most of the time nothing's going to happen to them.

How would the vendor know that OP is the real credit card owner and not someone fishing for information for future identity theft?

xerty said:   
qcumber98 said:   Let's pretend the bank gives you the information you asked for. Now what, Sherlock?
  Give it to the cops so they might actually do something?  Fraud's pretty low on the list, so unless you present them with all the details of the perp with a nice little bow, most of the time nothing's going to happen to them.

Why are you assuming the credit card company won't give the same information to the cops?  If the perp is on the other side of the world, what can your local cops do about it?

qcumber98 said:   
xerty said:   
qcumber98 said:   Let's pretend the bank gives you the information you asked for. Now what, Sherlock?
  Give it to the cops so they might actually do something?  Fraud's pretty low on the list, so unless you present them with all the details of the perp with a nice little bow, most of the time nothing's going to happen to them.

Why are you assuming the credit card company won't give the same information to the cops?  If the perp is on the other side of the world, what can your local cops do about it?

  
I think he is assuming the cops won't bother to do ANY investigating -- just provide a report for insurance/credit card company to file.  Its generally a no-win for the cops, because the chances of it being a local perp are slim to none unless it was a physically stolen card.  

I remember filing one in Ireland for a car break in, and the cop was baffled I even bothered - "they were in the hills within 5 minutes..."  The funny thing was I was parked under a camera for the "dock administration" (no, that wasn't an accident, either -- I assumed it would be sufficient) and they had access to the footage.  I told them I needed it for insurance, and they handed me a report.  (had a company owned laptop stolen, they needed it)



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