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Jail Time? 
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Got to love German engineering.  Do you think anyone at VW has gotten any sleep knowing they had ticking legal time bombs in hundreds of thousands of their cars?
WSJ said: Volkswagen and Audi management discussed the CO2 defeat-device software in detail during a “Summer Drive” event in South Africa in the second half of February 2013, according to one person familiar with the situation and excerpts from the minutes of the meeting, which were reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

According to the minutes, Axel Eiser, the head of Audi’s powertrain division, said, “the shifting program needs to be configured so that it runs at 100% on the treadmill but only 0.01% with the customer.”

 

Paging @Dus10, how many completely incorrect statements are you going to pack this thread with, just like you did with the Diesel one?

Anyone short VW?  Any other way to take advantage of this?

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Here's a link to the person who started the whole VW scandal and a picture of what device he used to measure it

http://ww... (more)

forbin4040 (Nov. 11, 2016 @ 12:16p) |

Damn, should have gone for an ///M3 instead.

Pylos (Nov. 11, 2016 @ 7:56p) |

That's cool, a real road test.

ZenNUTS (Nov. 12, 2016 @ 1:12p) |

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1. In what countries are CO2 emissions controlled?

2. How do you cheat on CO2 or H2O, the end products of perfect hydrocarbon combustion?

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taxmantoo said:   1. In what countries are CO2 emissions controlled?

2. How do you cheat on CO2 or H2O, the end products of perfect hydrocarbon combustion?

  1. Looks like EU tax on CO2 emission.

2. I'm confused on that as well.

ETA: I found this article from last year, not sure why this is being presented as something new: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/09/vw-engineers-co2-emissions-ch...
 

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taxmantoo said:   1. In what countries are CO2 emissions controlled?

2. How do you cheat on CO2 or H2O, the end products of perfect hydrocarbon combustion?

  
1)  In the EU.  If governments want one things, it's their tax money.

2) By de-rating the engines on the test machine.  De-rating gives you better mileage but takes away on-road performance.  Of course, you can cheat to get both the better mileage and performance if the engine only de-rates during testing.

It's unclear to me if this triggers any US regulations.  I believe the EPA miles/gallon testing is done on a track, so it shouldn't be in play.  I honestly don't believe the financial hit from this will be as bad as dieselgate (Germans have no will to hurt their own company).  But it will be a legal nightmare for the execs and absolutely destroys any credibility VW had left.  VWs corporate strategy - Cheat, cheat, cheat; arrogantly market your superior engineering; lie; falsify data to regulators; lie; lie; offer scapegoat.

 

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wilesmt said:   
 
2) By de-rating the engines on the test machine.  De-rating gives you better mileage but takes away on-road performance.  Of course, you can cheat to get both the better mileage and performance if the engine only de-rates during testing.

 

  What's de-rating have to do with CO2 output?  I'm just trying to understand.

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ZenNUTS said:   
wilesmt said:   
 
2) By de-rating the engines on the test machine.  De-rating gives you better mileage but takes away on-road performance.  Of course, you can cheat to get both the better mileage and performance if the engine only de-rates during testing.

 

  What's de-rating have to do with CO2 output?  I'm just trying to understand.

  I think the idea is that a derated car burns less gas per mile and thus gives off less co2

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Think about it like this. Burning a gallon of gasoline, in any car, releases a fixed amount of CO2 - 20 pounds. Therefore, miles/gallon and miles/unit of carbon operate at a fixed ratio for a car. You can pretty much always make an engine more efficient by artificially lowering it's performance. Lower performance = higher miles/gallon = higher miles/carbon.

A car getting 20 miles/gallon releases 200,000 lb of CO2 over a 200,000 mile life span. A car getting 30 miles/gallon only puts out 133,333 lb. The problem most likely is that VW was faking a 30 mpg car to the tax athourities when they really had a 20 mpg one (mpgs made up).

Derating may not be the correct technical term for a car engine, but it's a common term in airline engines

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wilesmt said:   Anyone short VW ?  Any other way to take advantage of this ?the article is over a year old.

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xoneinax said:   
wilesmt said:   Anyone short VW ?  Any other way to take advantage of this ?
the article is over a year old.

  
Not so much.  The article is on the First Page of today's Wall Street Journal (11/7/2016)

New Discovery Broadens VW Emissions-Cheating Crisis
California regulators find Audi engines were rigged to produce lower CO2 emissions in tests than on road

The same article was posted to the website last night. 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-probe-in-germany-extended... 

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ZenNUTS said:   I guess WSJ is a bit slow:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/09/vw-engineers-co2-emissions-ch...

  That autoblog article was talking about the old Diesel issues with VW that involved cheats in the engine management. The newly found issues involves both gas and Diesel Audis and are caused by a transmission cheat. 

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Not only THAT, but the new "cheat device" was discovered by CARB, but in a Reuters article we've been discussing at the Motor Trend article comments it was stated that it affected Audi's (no mention of other VW brands, but just wait...) I4's and V6's (sounds like their bread-and-butter 2.0L and 3.0L) for EU deployment.

IOW, it could affect gas and TDi vehicles in BOTH sides of the Atlantic from the start.

PS: using VW's TDi moniker would replace the link to the Italian fashion clothing company...

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ZenNUTS said:   I guess WSJ is a bit slow:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/09/vw-engineers-co2-emissions-ch...


How is the WSJ slow? You are citing the 2015 Volkswagen Diesel emission cheating scandal. The November WSJ article discusses the 2016 emissions scandal that affects gasoline (and Diesel) Audi brand vehicles. I recommend reading both cites so you are familiar with the difference.

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Yes, as it has been pointed out 2 posts above, I missed the part about affecting the gas cars as well. Part about CO2 and 2nd discovery mislead me.

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Never cared much for VW vehicles but the Audi's have caught my eye. Wonder if there will be a fire sale on them in December?

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TrueKnight said:   Never cared much for VW vehicles but the Audi's have caught my eye. Wonder if there will be a fire sale on them in December?
  VWs went for extremely cheap after the first round, so yes Audi's would go cheap next month.

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ZenNUTS said:   Yes, as it has been pointed out 2 posts above, I missed the part about affecting the gas cars as well. Part about CO2 and 2nd discovery mislead me.
  
With all of the cheating, scandals, and coverups by Volkswagen Group, it is hard to keep track. 

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They will not like having to buy back those A8's

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VW got caught, but similar cheating probably happens in many Germany companies. The ultimate cause is that Germany privatized many regulatory functions to private companies long ago. In particular most vehicular inspections is done by TuV, a private company, rather than a government agency as in the USA. TuV has been selling "consulting" services to car companies for a long time in which they "advice" companies on how to pass the government testing requirements. I am surprised this kind of scandal hasn't surfaced before.

Let this be a warning to what happens when you try to privatize too many governmental functions. Even when not privatized, government agencies are subject to regulatory capture. In USA the "user fees" introduced during the Reagan administration have been carefully structured by input from Industry to allow them to manipulate their own regulators (referred to as "regulatory capture" in academic literature). The FDA not only collects "user fees" from drug companies for evaluating drug tests (which is theoretically harmless) but the FDA has been made dependent on those user fees to cover their own salaries and management level bonus pay based on the level of user fees collected. It was relatively easy, then,  for Drug Companies to convince the FDA to exploit some grey areas in the law to hand out exclusive 5-7 year marketing monopolies to drug companies for drugs whose patents have long expired, in return for being able to collect more user fees for approving "safety tests" of those drugs (that have been on the market for over 50 years in some cases). The damage to the public from the sudden 10x or 100x increase in pricing of drugs that had long been generic greatly exceeds the user fees the FDA collects (and claims is saving in taxpayer money) and there is really no public policy reason for these new non-IP based monopolies which completely violate the basic principles of free market capitalism : If there is a real concern that some of these old generic drugs are unsafe, the NIH should pay to have them tested, which would cost a lot less then these ne marketing monopolies. Even worse, trade agreement like NAFTA and TPP now oblige foreign countries to approve similar monopolies (the excuse being to harmonizing IP laws), and the USA cannot terminate these bogus monopolies by US Congressional action (even if Congress could get its act together) since these trade agreements require 30 years notice before these "Investor" rights can be terminated or modified.Calling them "Free Trade Agreements" disguises the fact that their primary goal is to impose new bogus IP laws that restrict trade in drugs that have been generic for ages.

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ananthar said:   VW got caught, but similar cheating probably happens in many Germany companies. The ultimate cause is that Germany privatized many regulatory functions to private companies long ago. In particular most vehicular inspections is done by TuV, a private company, rather than a government agency as in the USA. TuV has been selling "consulting" services to car companies for a long time in which they "advice" companies on how to pass the government testing requirements. I am surprised this kind of scandal hasn't surfaced before.

Let this be a warning to what happens when you try to privatize too many governmental functions. Even when not privatized, government agencies are subject to regulatory capture. In USA the "user fees" introduced during the Reagan administration have been carefully structured by input from Industry to allow them to manipulate their own regulators (referred to as "regulatory capture" in academic literature). The FDA not only collects "user fees" from drug companies for evaluating drug tests (which is theoretically harmless) but the FDA has been made dependent on those user fees to cover their own salaries and management level bonus pay based on the level of user fees collected. It was relatively easy, then,  for Drug Companies to convince the FDA to exploit some grey areas in the law to hand out exclusive 5-7 year marketing monopolies to drug companies for drugs whose patents have long expired, in return for being able to collect more user fees for approving "safety tests" of those drugs (that have been on the market for over 50 years in some cases). The damage to the public from the sudden 10x or 100x increase in pricing of drugs that had long been generic greatly exceeds the user fees the FDA collects (and claims is saving in taxpayer money) and there is really no public policy reason for these new non-IP based monopolies which completely violate the basic principles of free market capitalism : If there is a real concern that some of these old generic drugs are unsafe, the NIH should pay to have them tested, which would cost a lot less then these ne marketing monopolies. Even worse, trade agreement like NAFTA and TPP now oblige foreign countries to approve similar monopolies (the excuse being to harmonizing IP laws), and the USA cannot terminate these bogus monopolies by US Congressional action (even if Congress could get its act together) since these trade agreements require 30 years notice before these "Investor" rights can be terminated or modified.Calling them "Free Trade Agreements" disguises the fact that their primary goal is to impose new bogus IP laws that restrict trade in drugs that have been generic for ages.

  

The United States allows auto manufacturers to self certify much of their legal requirements for each vehicle. 

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NEDeals said:   
ZenNUTS said:   Yes, as it has been pointed out 2 posts above, I missed the part about affecting the gas cars as well. Part about CO2 and 2nd discovery mislead me.
  
With all of the cheating, scandals, and coverups by Volkswagen Group, it is hard to keep track. 

  I checked the wiki page on the scandal but it didn't even show up until the afternoon.

Having some experience with truck dyno I think it should been easily detected on a dyno.  Another question in my mind is there has to be tons of people who knows about this.  After all, the source code can't be that large and has to gone through multiple approval stages.

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ZenNUTS said:   

Having some experience with truck dyno I think it should been easily detected on a dyno.  Another question in my mind is there has to be tons of people who knows about this.  After all, the source code can't be that large and has to gone through multiple approval stages.

With the Diesel scandal last year, the software knows if the car is on a dyno and puts the car on test mode to reduce CO2. The way to bypass the software was to put testing equipment on the car and drive it around.

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forbin4040 said:   
TrueKnight said:   Never cared much for VW vehicles but the Audi's have caught my eye. Wonder if there will be a fire sale on them in December?
  VWs went for extremely cheap after the first round, so yes Audi's would go cheap next month.

  
Which Audis? ETA?? 

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triggerhappy007 said:   
ZenNUTS said:   

Having some experience with truck dyno I think it should been easily detected on a dyno.  Another question in my mind is there has to be tons of people who knows about this.  After all, the source code can't be that large and has to gone through multiple approval stages.

With the Diesel scandal last year, the software knows if the car is on a dyno and puts the car on test mode to reduce CO2. The way to bypass the software was to put testing equipment on the car and drive it around.

  The roller you see at emission place is not a dyno, just a weighted roller. AFAIK,

Real dyno measures power output as well

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ZenNUTS said:   
triggerhappy007 said:   
ZenNUTS said:   

Having some experience with truck dyno I think it should been easily detected on a dyno.  Another question in my mind is there has to be tons of people who knows about this.  After all, the source code can't be that large and has to gone through multiple approval stages.

With the Diesel scandal last year, the software knows if the car is on a dyno and puts the car on test mode to reduce CO2. The way to bypass the software was to put testing equipment on the car and drive it around.

  The roller you see at emission place is not a dyno, just a weighted roller. AFAIK,

Real dyno measures power output as well

  Here's a link to the person who started the whole VW scandal and a picture of what device he used to measure it

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34519184
 

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Damn, should have gone for an ///M3 instead.

rated:
That's cool, a real road test.

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