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rated:
Initially I thought the proposal for limiting and/or removing all H1B visas would be great for the hi-tech industry.  No more low paid workers being brought in to artificially lower wages through an over supply of workers willing to work for less.  But then I thought that most companies given a choice between: 1) raising wages to attract workers or 2) increasing workload of existing workers, would choose option 2.  Now I'm kind of worried that if there are less or no H1B workers, my pay will not go up but my workload will and I can show myself out the door if I don't like it.   I'm also quite certain there will be collusion among the employers so that I can't just leave my company for another one offering higher wages.  Thoughts?

ETA:
Definitely not talking about call centers - those are not hi-tech careers.

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I agree though that there is a high shortage of elite technical talent in the US. I also agree that companies are taking... (more)

justacog (Dec. 02, 2016 @ 9:03a) |

Plus what you often see is a trickledown where the H1Bs are cheap labor and the existing labor has to take similar lower... (more)

RedWolfe01 (Dec. 02, 2016 @ 2:54p) |

Yeah.    And the same companies that complain about shortages of engineers and claim they need H1Bs are also all going to ... (more)

jerosen (Dec. 02, 2016 @ 3:04p) |

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rated:
That little statement is the entire worry of the country.

How to enable more jobs for 'Americans' and how to keep them from going offshore?

Call Centers in Philippines and India (These used to be based in the midwest due to the glut of population there)
H1Bs coming from India (As far as I know the only H1Bs that are affecting Tech jobs are coming from there and I'm looking at you Disney for firing your IT Staff and hiring H1Bs to replace them.)
Manufacturing fleeing the States because of regulation and going to Mexico or China. (Forced to leave because of regulation)

How does it affect you Xnarg1? In the short run yes you will have more work to do for the same pay as the H1Bs are phased out. Then all of a sudden after a year you will be getting calls from Headhunters around the country because there is a giant need for Trained IT support and they are not allowed to hire H1Bs. There is always going to be some 'secret deals' between employers but there is always the employer who needs the people badly and decides not to honor that deal.  But as the market gets desparate, those deals are worth the handshake they are on.  

HOPEFULLY the tech stranglehold that Silicon Valley has will spread to other parts of the country. 
Keep your resume up to date and your Linked In Profile active. That's all I can say.  

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IT jobs will just be moved offshore. 50% of my IT department is already in Bangalore. The trend will just continue.

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Yes, you only bring up two options, but the third clear option, just move the job to where the lower paid workers are. So instead of bringing those workers to the US, you take the jobs to those workers outside the US.

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The biggest problem with IT Jobs going offshore is the time and language barrier.

This is why H1B's are so wanted in Tech. They are physically here (Sorta slaves to the company that sponsored them), and they are working the same hours as everyone else (they are onhand for surprise changes).
Also if they aren't here, who going to fix all the 'cupholders' that people broke.  Someone offshore cannot fix that, you have to be in house.  H1Bs fit that equation well.

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<Off topic>  I can't believe people still confuse call center employees for high-tech workers.  They are not.  They are script readers.  Wandering off the pre-written scripts renders them as headlights render deer.  </Off topic>

H1B is one of the main contributors to why most software today is pure garbage.  Stupid management that hires H1B's or off-shores development is the other reason.  I still remember when quality software was produced by intelligent programmers instead of trained code monkeys and their idiot bosses.

I think reducing/eliminating H1B will eventually result in better software and better customer service overall.  "Business Analysts", a.k.a. translators to code monkeys, will need to go back to IT roots and refocus on becoming either programmers, DBA's, or network admins.

 

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@samiam68 you fail to recognize the two classes of H1B:
body-shop $20/hr H1B contractor code monkeys
superstar 150k+ engineers from top tier overseas schools working fulltime at GOOG/AMZN/wherever

The true talent on the teams I've worked with is evenly split between domestic and H1B-sourced engineers.

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I wasn't aware of the 150k H1B's KSEA. You sure they are H1B's and not just people that look like H1Bs?

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h1bdata.info

look up any popular company, most of the salaries are between 100k-150k.

I'm ok with people coming here overseas, going to school and getting a job like the rest of us. It's the shenanigans the employer overlords use to reduce compensation by employing cheap labor that grinds my gears.

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Where it will disrupt things is the outsourcing of departments en masse. Many arrangements include having offshored workers cycle through on-site via H1B. So, they may outsource 75-80% of a department, then they have 1/4-1/3 of those offshore workers come on-site for a period of time as H1B, and they just take turns. This is supposed to help with the cultural and other difficulties that come up. I don't know if this will slow down or speed up the efforts to offshore jobs. I do see some companies are starting to stop remote work, so this may be as a result of anticipated lower H1B... we aren't going to be able to keep this up, so we think we will drive additional value by forcing folks into the office, whether that is misplaced thinking or not.

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@forbin1040 Yes I'm quite sure; there are others that are L1 which would become the primary path if H1B were shut down. Many immediately file for a PERM / green card, but Indian nationals have a 10+ year wait for that (which is a separate problem).

rated:
Wow, 150k H1Bs. I know a ton of people who would kill to get 100k, and they are paying H1B's 150k? Just wow.
But looking at the data the Avg H1B is earning 83k. (Which is most likely including the 20% that the 'owner' company is charging)

And the 100k ones are all in silicon valley.

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1. I live in Seattle.
2. There is no 'owner' of full time (non-contracted) H1Bs, they are sponsored by their actual employer, and nobody takes a 20% cut.

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ksea said:   2. There is no 'owner' of full time (non-contracted) H1Bs, they are sponsored by their actual employer, and nobody takes a 20% cut.
  Ask Disney that

They fired their entire IT staff.  Hired a company to send them nice newly minted H1B's.  Those H1B's are paid by that 'owner' company.  And are sue proof in regards to the 'h1b cannot displace an american job' act.
https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2016/10/14/disney-wins-lawsuit-filed-by-americans-replaced-by-h-1b-visa-workers-but-cognizant-hcl-america-face-new-legal-hurdle418259/ 

And looking at the h1b data a lot of the 100k money in New York were hired by Two Sigma Investments..which sounds like an outsourcing company to me...hence the 20% comment still holds.

And wow the holder of the 100+k salary in Seattle?  Bill and Melinda Gates....yikes, he's part of it H1B game!

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ksea said:   1. I live in Seattle.
2. There is no 'owner' of full time (non-contracted) H1Bs, they are sponsored by their actual employer, and nobody takes a 20% cut.

  My experience, which is limited, has been the contractor is through Tata, or whatever company, and that is their sponsor, not the "end consumer" company.  My limited experience has involved a few industries: healthcare, automotive, and technology.

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Dus10 said:   Where it will disrupt things is the outsourcing of departments en masse. Many arrangements include having offshored workers cycle through on-site via H1B. So, they may outsource 75-80% of a department, then they have 1/4-1/3 of those offshore workers come on-site for a period of time as H1B, and they just take turns. This is supposed to help with the cultural and other difficulties that come up. I don't know if this will slow down or speed up the efforts to offshore jobs. I do see some companies are starting to stop remote work, so this may be as a result of anticipated lower H1B... we aren't going to be able to keep this up, so we think we will drive additional value by forcing folks into the office, whether that is misplaced thinking or not.
  
​At worst it will force Wiprow's and Infy's of the world to:
​1. Hire a lot more people permanently in the USA
​2. Sponsor a lot more green cards for their top talents.
3. Raise their salaries for the US hires to be able to hire top talent.

​From all indications - they have already been preparing for this eventuality since at least 2008-2009 timeframe. I was being hounded by recruiters from two of the big names to work for them back in 2010-2012 timeframe. They were offering super-fluffy titles and a 20% pay-cut (since their pay range topped out there) :-D ...
I also know at least 5 of my neighbors (I live in an immigrant neighborhood) who has got GC through one of the big Indian companies in the last few years. This was unheard of before - because the Wipro's and Infy's of the world like H1B better since they are more exploitable. Many of the department takeover folks that people complain about are actually local hires and GC holders!!

​So the only impact is going to be raised rates from these companies - but still not enough to make them uncompetitive.


 

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I am not sure America is anymore a lucrative place for H1b.. I have seen reverse trend where alot of people are going back. Some people are forced to come here..
America used to drain on brain from all over world. By refusing to be welcoming to this powerful knowledge is worry some news for longterm prospect of USA.. Look at the percentage of scientist, Doctors, Software Engineers with holding patents etc who are immigrant..
Companies bring H1b because there is not enough resources here to fill the gap. Any american can become software engineer with " Good in Maths/ Logistics" but i have seen people dont want to struggle and do hard work..

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>> I am not sure America is anymore a lucrative place for H1b..
Not for the top talent!! But it is still plenty lucrative for people a couple of tiers below.

I have access to some placement/employment data of one of the top schools in India. In 2001 - 25 out of 41 in the CS graduating class came to the US for either MS or work. In 2014 that number went down to below 10 in a larger class size. I'm pretty sure the slack was taken up from the lower tier schools. The total number of students coming from India did not decline in this period.

Based on anecdotal information - I think the stories of difficulties faced by H1B's and wait times for GC is probably what has caused this shift.

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forbin4040 said:   Wow, 150k H1Bs. I know a ton of people who would kill to get 100k, and they are paying H1B's 150k? Just wow.
But looking at the data the Avg H1B is earning 83k. (Which is most likely including the 20% that the 'owner' company is charging)

And the 100k ones are all in silicon valley.

Some folks i know are on h1b and make over 250k but they do stuff that others can't  .

rated:
Xnarg1 said:   Initially I thought the proposal for limiting and/or removing all H1B visas would be great for the hi-tech industry.  No more low paid workers being brought in to artificially lower wages through an over supply of workers willing to work for less.  But then I thought that most companies given a choice between: 1) raising wages to attract workers or 2) increasing workload of existing workers, would choose option 2.  Now I'm kind of worried that if there are less or no H1B workers, my pay will not go up but my workload will and I can show myself out the door if I don't like it.   I'm also quite certain there will be collusion among the employers so that I can't just leave my company for another one offering higher wages.  Thoughts?

ETA:
Definitely not talking about call centers - those are not hi-tech careers.

  
Can't hire folks H1B visas for hi-tech jobs?  No problem, they'll just ship ENTIRE departments overseas.

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forbin4040 said:   Wow, 150k H1Bs. I know a ton of people who would kill to get 100k, and they are paying H1B's 150k? Just wow.
But looking at the data the Avg H1B is earning 83k. (Which is most likely including the 20% that the 'owner' company is charging)

And the 100k ones are all in silicon valley.


Majority of the H1B's are not the result of abusing the system - contrary to popular perception! There is definitely a significant minority who are - but there are also many who are highly paid and hold specialized skillsets.

I personally know many (as in tens of them) who must be making 100k+ and either are, or were in H1B - outside of Silicon Valley.

There are a handful of big companies (including both from US and outside) who abuse the "intent" of H1B's (but not the letter). And there are many smaller who abuse whatever they can get away with. But I would bet $100 with you that if you added all of that up - it won't cross a third of total H1's - leaving at least two thirds of H1's completely legitimate.

<Edited to add>I am not arguing that the systemic abuse by a large number of H1B employers is not a problem. Heck, talk to anyone on H1B and they will be the first ones to rattle on about the issues with this whole H1B System. However, I am personally not convinced that choking off all avenues of entry by high skilled professionals in the US is going to be good in the long or short term for either the whole economy or the workers this measure is supposed to "protect".</Edited to add>

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Can't hire folks H1B visas for hi-tech jobs?  No problem, they'll just ship ENTIRE departments overseas.

Not if they are hit with a 35%+ concomitant tariff on the work product.

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justacog said:   Can't hire folks H1B visas for hi-tech jobs?  No problem, they'll just ship ENTIRE departments overseas.

Not if they are hit with a 35%+ concomitant tariff on the work product.

  
0% chance.

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speedracer714 said:   
justacog said:   Can't hire folks H1B visas for hi-tech jobs?  No problem, they'll just ship ENTIRE departments overseas.

Not if they are hit with a 35%+ concomitant tariff on the work product.

  
0% chance.

  
But the tariff is also part of the proposal.

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There will not be no more H1Bs. We will go towards the original intent of H1Bs. There is absolutely a shortage of competent software engineers which was the original intent. What was happening was large corporations were abusing the law by classifying IT helpdesk monkeys and low-value "IT" jobs as hi tech and replacing relatively expensive for what they do American workers with low value low pay IT "monkeys" (see infamous Disney news). Trump will clarify hi tech and will start enforcing the laws.

rated:
Xnarg1 said:   Initially I thought the proposal for limiting and/or removing all H1B visas would be great for the hi-tech industry.  No more low paid workers being brought in to artificially lower wages through an over supply of workers willing to work for less.  But then I thought that most companies given a choice between: 1) raising wages to attract workers or 2) increasing workload of existing workers, would choose option 2.  Now I'm kind of worried that if there are less or no H1B workers, my pay will not go up but my workload will and I can show myself out the door if I don't like it.   I'm also quite certain there will be collusion among the employers so that I can't just leave my company for another one offering higher wages.  Thoughts?

ETA:
Definitely not talking about call centers - those are not hi-tech careers.

  They need to put more work on you.  You have too much time on your hand.  Using company time and equipment to write these posts.

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I think the loophole is with the H4 visas that are allowed to work. Take a low paying H1B and the spouse can get the better job without having to go thru the hassle of labor certification with companies not willing to help. It's been a while since I followed immigration and was recently surprised about H4 allowed to work.

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forbin4040 said:   And looking at the h1b data a lot of the 100k money in New York were hired by Two Sigma Investments..which sounds like an outsourcing company to me...hence the 20% comment still holds.
 

  Two Sigma is a well regarded hedge fund.  

rated:
Xnarg1 said:   h1bdata.info

look up any popular company, most of the salaries are between 100k-150k.

I'm ok with people coming here overseas, going to school and getting a job like the rest of us. It's the shenanigans the employer overlords use to reduce compensation by employing cheap labor that grinds my gears.

  
​The fix to those shenanigans is surprisingly simple!! Just make H1B's able to change jobs freely without any impact to their immigration status, GC process or fear of "getting 10 days to leave the country".

​Once the H1's are able to do that - no employer will be able to abuse them like they sometimes do now - since they can just jump ship!

​50 brownie points if you can guess why this simple thing is not politically feasible!!

rated:
puddonhead said:   
Xnarg1 said:   h1bdata.info

look up any popular company, most of the salaries are between 100k-150k.

I'm ok with people coming here overseas, going to school and getting a job like the rest of us. It's the shenanigans the employer overlords use to reduce compensation by employing cheap labor that grinds my gears.

  
The fix to those shenanigans is surprisingly simple!! Just make H1B's able to change jobs freely without any impact to their immigration status, GC process or fear of "getting 10 days to leave the country".

Once the H1's are able to do that - no employer will be able to abuse them - since they can just jump ship! 

So you want H1B people to directly compete with Americans for jobs?

rated:
>> So you want H1B people to directly compete with Americans for jobs?

Don't you want that?

Right now they depress wages due to the restrictions they face. Some employers can pay them less as they can not leave without having to restart their GC process. That, in turn, depress wages in the whole market. Why would an employer pay $100k base plus benefits for a job when he can just hire a corp to corp H1 for $60/hour - who is in turn making no more than $60k.

If the H1 could make a jump for $80k - do you see the benefit?

​Plus - it will dial abuse way down!! Why will a company sponsor H1's to abuse if they can't abuse the employee any more after the visa is granted?

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puddonhead said:   >> So you want H1B people to directly compete with Americans for jobs?

Don't you want that?

Right now they depress wages due to the restrictions they face. Some employers can pay them less as they can not leave without having to restart their GC process. That, in turn, depress wages in the whole market. Why would an employer pay $100k base plus benefits for a job when he can just hire a corp to corp H1 for $60/hour - who is in turn making no more than $60k.

If the H1 could make a jump for $80k - do you see the benefit?

​Plus - it will dial abuse way down!! Why will a company sponsor H1's to abuse if they can't abuse the employee any more after the visa is granted?

  What's to stop the employer from just hiring another H1B hence making it worse for the American and the newly jumped H1B?
 

rated:
puddonhead said:   >> So you want H1B people to directly compete with Americans for jobs?

Don't you want that?

Right now they depress wages due to the restrictions they face. Some employers can pay them less as they can not leave without having to restart their GC process. That, in turn, depress wages in the whole market. Why would an employer pay $100k base plus benefits for a job when he can just hire a corp to corp H1 for $60/hour - who is in turn making no more than $60k.

If the H1 could make a jump for $80k - do you see the benefit?

​Plus - it will dial abuse way down!! Why will a company sponsor H1's to abuse if they can't abuse the employee any more after the visa is granted?

  No, I do not want foreigners coming into this country and competing for jobs with Americans.

If an American can do the job, an American should be hired.

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I think all you need to do is set a wage floor for h1bs to 5% over average for the job in truly high need areas and you're set.

rated:
>> What's to stop the employer from just hiring another H1B hence making it worse for the American and the newly jumped H1B?
1. Yearly quota that gets filled quickly.
2. Cost of hiring a H1. Last I checked - legal used to charge > $20k to our cost center to get a H1. Why do that if there is no true need - and no special attraction of "pliant employees" as they can't leave?
3. Legal provisions regarding prevailing wages that are routinely abused and side-stepped by abusive companies - but should be less so if they can't hold H1's hostage.

>> No, I do not want foreigners coming into this country and competing for jobs with Americans. If an American can do the job, an American should be hired.
Do you want all the foreign startup founders in the silicon valley?
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2016/03/17/study-immigrants-founded-51-of-u-s-billion-dollar-startups/ 
How about all 6 of the Nobel Prize winners in 2016 - 100% of whom are immigrants?
How about the kids of those same foreign workers that are winning the Intel Science Talent Search in droves? Spelling Bees? Geography Bees? Math Olympiads?
Children of Immigrants Are America’s Science Superstars 


You have two options:
1. Stop all H1's, and L1s etc. This will have many adverse effects as many (I believe most) H1's are here for a legit needs that actually benefit US economy as a whole and also US workers indirectly, e.g. the startups above.
2. Fix it so that it can not be abused by so many employers.

What I suggested will address #2 in one step.

>> I think all you need to do is set a wage floor for h1bs to 5% over average for the job in truly high need areas and you're set.
We already have prevailing wage regulations. They don't work as employers (the abusive ones) have figured out how to game it. And the depressive effect of H1's hold down the "prevailing wage" even for legitimate employers.

rated:
Our HR department has been approached by companies stating they can get a developer into our office for $40k per year. I tell them, hell no. That's gotta be breaking quite a few rules. There's also quite a few consulting companies that bring in H1B's and then outsource them to other companies. I think those sort of things need to be stopped.
forbin4040 said:   Wow, 150k H1Bs. I know a ton of people who would kill to get 100k, and they are paying H1B's 150k? Just wow.
But looking at the data the Avg H1B is earning 83k. (Which is most likely including the 20% that the 'owner' company is charging)

And the 100k ones are all in silicon valley.

I know of a few 150k+ H1Bs out here. Sometimes they come here cheap, and then move jobs once they've hit some milestones. Usually, though, if they aren't rockstars they tend to ask for slightly less than the going rate.

I'm often looking for someone to hire around $100k down in Orange County.  Usually when we put out the ad, we get flooded with H1B applicant's who are jumping jobs.

rated:
How about any children H1Bs have back in their home countries have to register for the draft to fight in our wars?

rated:
justacog said:   How about any children H1Bs have back in their home countries have to register for the draft to fight in our wars?
  
I hope you are a vet yourself and your kids are all in service before you threw that one out there...

Nothing annoys me more than chickenhawks (surrounded by them in the south) who make a lot of noise and wave the flag but never served.  (and want us to go kick everybody else's butt)  That includes W.

rated:
forbin4040 said:   
ksea said:   you fail to recognize the two classes of H1B:
body-shop $20/hr H1B contractor code monkeys
superstar 150k+ engineers from top tier overseas schools working fulltime at GOOG/AMZN/wherever
[...]
There is no 'owner' of full time (non-contracted) H1Bs, they are sponsored by their actual employer, and nobody takes a 20% cut.

  Ask Disney that
 

 
Dus10 said:   My experience, which is limited, has been the contractor is through Tata, or whatever company, and that is their sponsor, not the "end consumer" company.  My limited experience has involved a few industries: healthcare, automotive, and technology.
  
Disney & Tata both sound suspiciously like the first class I identified.  There are certainly contractor firms that pay more, and direct hires that get paid less, but IME the salary distribution is bimodal with different peaks for the two different types of employee.

I can assure you that GOOG/MSFT/AMZN/others hire plenty of H1Bs directly as W2 employees without an intermediary.

Skipping 71 Messages...
rated:
justacog said:   I agree though that there is a high shortage of elite technical talent in the US. I also agree that companies are taking advantage of H1Bs for non-technical "IT" jobs by lying about the job description. 
~~~
Another facet to the shortage problem is people gave up pursuing all the work and cost of STEM degrees when they saw their peers and seniors careers be raped by the H1B/outsourcing gold rush.  The whole educational pipeline was contaminated from the pursuit of these short term cost savings. I know I still can't recommend to any of my family members to pursue Engineering because of it.  The game is still heavily rigged.

  
Yeah.    And the same companies that complain about shortages of engineers and claim they need H1Bs are also all going to lay off 10% of their workforce every few years... then turn around and continue to claim theres a shortage of engineers.

 

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