Help with buying gold

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I would like to start investing in gold coins/bars.
What is the best way? I looked at APmex on eBay for some good prices, what is the difference between the various coins as the prices differ a bit.

2015 gold buffalos vs 2017 gold canadian maple leaf vs other coins

There are many to choose from. What is the main difference in these 1oz coins? 
Are these at 22kt gold? or 24 or what?

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How are your questions different from OP's, already answered in this thread?

scripta (Feb. 07, 2017 @ 3:41a) |

What is the best way to buy?

  • From a Reputable dealer (eg APMEX)
  • As close to spot as possible for a given hallmark
... (more)

quaters (Feb. 07, 2017 @ 10:10a) |

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wakeuprich (Feb. 07, 2017 @ 4:05p) |

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Why are there different prices for 1oz bars, etc.
arent' they all .9999 % gold. why would I pay one price vs another for one bar vs another? can someone explain?

Some are .999 vs .9999, you have to look at the specific product. That extra 9 seems to command an extra premium which I think is a little high.

Coins come with premiums because of supply/demand. You can expect the melt value to be the base value, then they'll typically be worth more depending how much collectors want that particular coin. Obviously older & rarer coins will come with a higher premium. In terms of why modern American Eagles have a premium, I believe it comes from the fact that you don't have to prove that it's pure gold. There's always a risk that if you buy a gold bar, it might be gold Plated tungsten, but the risk of that is so low with a government's officially minted currency (expect for Russia's, which have rusted) that you pay a little extra for that security.

I've had success buying and selling on eBay, but I'm always a little worried because it would be relatively easy for someone to rip you off. I've used Apmex and Northwest Territorial Mint with a lot of success, the former for smaller purchases and the latter for larger purchases from their bullion department. 

 

There is no "investing" in gold bars, physical gold is not a good investment. You are investing in a volatile commodity that is priced based on fear and historically under performs just about any other asset class. Then, on top of that, you will have lots of transaction costs (further decreasing any gains you might get by luck) if you ever have good enough sense to sell it and buy something that is an actual investment. Of course, buying things like GLD is also not a good investment, but at least then you can minimize your transaction costs. If you want commodity exposure in your portfolio (a reasonable position depending on your asset class mix), there are a million ways to get it that are better than buying physical precious metals.

*Waits for the FWF resident gold bugs to red me and tell me how the economy will collapse any day now/the evil Fed is going to destroy the dollar/uses cherry picked time periods to argue gold is a fabulous investment because they only include the recent run up in price.*


wpgabriel said:   Some are .999 vs .9999, you have to look at the specific product. That extra 9 seems to command an extra premium which I think is a little high.

Coins come with premiums because of supply/demand. You can expect the melt value to be the base value, then they'll typically be worth more depending how much collectors want that particular coin. Obviously older & rarer coins will come with a higher premium. In terms of why modern American Eagles have a premium, I believe it comes from the fact that you don't have to prove that it's pure gold. There's always a risk that if you buy a gold bar, it might be gold Plated tungsten, but the risk of that is so low with a government's officially minted currency (expect for Russia's, which have rusted) that you pay a little extra for that security.

I've had success buying and selling on eBay, but I'm always a little worried because it would be relatively easy for someone to rip you off. I've used Apmex and Northwest Territorial Mint with a lot of success, the former for smaller purchases and the latter for larger purchases from their bullion department. 

 

  So then gold coins are not for me. I would invest in gold bars or something of that nature. I don't want to invest in collectors items. I am just looking to get value out of the gold I buy and don't want to over pay premium based on collector value. What would be best to invest in physical gold? And where to buy would be best?

haveyouseen said:     So then gold coins are not for me. I would invest in gold bars or something of that nature. I don't want to invest in collectors items. I am just looking to get value out of the gold I buy and don't want to over pay premium based on collector value. What would be best to invest in physical gold? And where to buy would be best?
  
I would tend to agree with magika that precious metals are not an investment, they're more like a trade. [Though I do have to say that with the way many people speculate in the stock market, the difference might be a technicality. ] You might be able to argue that a knowledgeable person could invest in the collectibility of a coin anticipating that it will be more desirable in the future, but that comes with its own pitfalls, and more importantly, it doesn't sound like you want to have anything to do with that.

There is a lot you need to learn before you start plunking money down for gold. For instance, when you go to sell gold, if you can't find a buyer who trusts your bars, you're going to have to do a scratch test to prove it's real gold. That will diminish the value somewhat. That's one of the reasons I was mentioning reputable coins come with a premium. So you pay that now, or you might have to sell at a discount because you're paying to test your bars in the future.

Also, I mentioned a couple of places to buy. "Best" really depends on the circumstances, so you're going to need to put in the work to determine what's best for your situation. If you want to trade metals, you're going to need to put in the work.

 

haveyouseen said:   I would like to start investing in gold coins/bars.
What is the best way? I looked at APmex on eBay for some good prices, what is the difference between the various coins as the prices differ a bit.

2015 gold buffalos vs 2017 gold canadian maple leaf vs other coins

There are many to choose from. What is the main difference in these 1oz coins? 
Are these at 22kt gold? or 24 or what?

  
I do own some gold coins. There are high transaction costs when buying/selling so I only buy them when I'm able to minimize these costs. I don't really see the coins I own as an "investment" because the returns are pretty paltry compared to my basic 3-fund portfolio. However, I do collect coins for numismatic purposes and I just like to have some regular gold bullion coins. That said, here's how I try to go about it.

-Try to get the coin as close to spot as possible. For example, right now, here's the cheapest Gold Eagle 1 Oz. coin I found on eBay after a very quick search. Normally, I would look a little harder and even look at the auctions. I'm not worried about being ripped off because I know what a legitimate gold coin looks and feels like. If for some reason it doesn't get delivered or it's a fake, I'll get my money back either through eBay (which swings in the buyer's favor usually) or my Credit Card if necessary.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-oz-American-Eagle-50-Gold-Coin-Random-... 

It's priced at $1249.16 while the spot price of gold during the same time is (1159.80/1160.80). So it's a premium of about $88.36 over spot. 

- Know where you're going to sell before you buy. I won't sell on eBay since buyer protection is much stronger than seller protection. I have a coin shop that will purchase American Eagles for $10 above spot. They also purchase other bullion coins but usually under spot for Krugerrand or Maples so I prefer the Eagles.

-Therefore, the premium I'm looking to overcome before I buy is now $88.36 - $10 = $77.36. 
Since I buy with a 2% back credit card, I get about $25 back on the purchase reducing my premium to about $52.

Personally, this is still to high for me but I may purchase at this point since gold is at a 10 month low. Normally, I'll only purchase when eBay sends me a 10% coupon up to $100 which will actually allow me to get the coin for $40 or so under spot. Sometimes, they'll send coupons for extra eBay bucks which is another time I'll purchase. 

A couple of times, I've actually purchased in this way and sold the coin physically to the coin store immediately upon receiving the coin and made a quick 50 bucks. I've done this when I've needed to manufacture spend on a credit card for a bonus. Generally I prefer to keep them though.

A word of warning - even with buying in the way suggested above and trying to do it during periods I perceive as "low" while combining with the eBay coupons, I'm still underwater on my gold purchases. I've purchased about 10 ounces of gold in the last 3 years at an average price of $1200 per ounce. If I sold today, I would lose about 3% or so. If I had just put the money into my S&P 500 fund, the money would actually have been up by 10% or so.




 

I have two friends who buy gold and silver -- one stores his metal in his gun closet along with his cash stash and ammo. He also has his GOOD bag, and ready pistol next to it. In his garage he has water storage barrels and long term food where one of the cars could park. Last time he moved his guns and ammo his truck almost dragged the ground... (half ton RAM)

The other one was into bitcoin mining, and spent a lot of money on PC/GPU/power to do so. He made money until he estimated the power cost. <g> He was living in Mexico so had easy access to gold and silver coins at prices close to spot. If he had not been paying for power at MX rates he might have at least broken even on the Bitcoins. LOL. He probably made more on the gold and silver than the mining...

And yes, those two guys know each other and both think the other one is nuts. (I have doubts about them both at times..!)

RedWolfe01 said:   I have two friends who buy gold and silver -- one stores his metal in his gun closet along with his cash stash and ammo. He also has his GOOD bag, and ready pistol next to it. In his garage he has water storage barrels and long term food where one of the cars could park. Last time he moved his guns and ammo his truck almost dragged the ground... (half ton RAM)

The other one was into bitcoin mining, and spent a lot of money on PC/GPU/power to do so. He made money until he estimated the power cost. <g> He was living in Mexico so had easy access to gold and silver coins at prices close to spot. If he had not been paying for power at MX rates he might have at least broken even on the Bitcoins. LOL. He probably made more on the gold and silver than the mining...

And yes, those two guys know each other and both think the other one is nuts. (I have doubts about them both at times..!)

  Everything is bigger in Texas.

magika said:   There is no "investing" in gold bars, physical gold is not a good investment. You are investing in a volatile commodity that is priced based on fear and historically under performs just about any other asset class. Then, on top of that, you will have lots of transaction costs (further decreasing any gains you might get by luck) if you ever have good enough sense to sell it and buy something that is an actual investment. Of course, buying things like GLD is also not a good investment, but at least then you can minimize your transaction costs. If you want commodity exposure in your portfolio (a reasonable position depending on your asset class mix), there are a million ways to get it that are better than buying physical precious metals.

*Waits for the FWF resident gold bugs to red me and tell me how the economy will collapse any day now/the evil Fed is going to destroy the dollar/uses cherry picked time periods to argue gold is a fabulous investment because they only include the recent run up in price.*

  I don't know why would you say that GLD is not a good investment.  I made tons of money from GLD.  From 2013 till now GLD is trading between  $101 and $135.  I kept on buying and selling.  

king0fSpades said:   
magika said:   There is no "investing" in gold bars, physical gold is not a good investment. You are investing in a volatile commodity that is priced based on fear and historically under performs just about any other asset class. Then, on top of that, you will have lots of transaction costs (further decreasing any gains you might get by luck) if you ever have good enough sense to sell it and buy something that is an actual investment. Of course, buying things like GLD is also not a good investment, but at least then you can minimize your transaction costs. If you want commodity exposure in your portfolio (a reasonable position depending on your asset class mix), there are a million ways to get it that are better than buying physical precious metals.

*Waits for the FWF resident gold bugs to red me and tell me how the economy will collapse any day now/the evil Fed is going to destroy the dollar/uses cherry picked time periods to argue gold is a fabulous investment because they only include the recent run up in price.*

  I don't know why would you say that GLD is not a good investment.  I made tons of money from GLD.  From 2013 till now GLD is trading between  $101 and $135.  I kept on buying and selling.  

  Today I made a trade at $110.5.  If it goes down I will buy more.  If it does up I will sell some.

RedWolfe01 said:   He was living in Mexico so had easy access to gold and silver coins at prices close to spot.Can you explain what living in Mexico has to do with easy access to coins at prices close to spot?

haveyouseen said:   I would like to start investing in gold coins/bars.
What is the best way? I looked at APmex on eBay for some good prices, what is the difference between the various coins as the prices differ a bit.

2015 gold buffalos vs 2017 gold canadian maple leaf vs other coins

There are many to choose from. What is the main difference in these 1oz coins? 
Are these at 22kt gold? or 24 or what?
 

Have you ever bought and resold something at a profit on purpose? The idea is the same -- you want to buy at the lowest possible markup and sell at the highest possible markup. For gold, you should probably figure out how you're going to sell it before you buy it.
The Karats don't matter -- a 1oz 22K (Eagle) and a 24K (Buffalo, Maple) have exactly 1 oz of gold in them, but the 22K weighs more because of other metals (like silver and copper). 24k is a lot softer and easier to scratch, so you have to be more gentle with it. All non-collectible coins trade around the gold spot price. The price of coins is higher than bars on both, the buy and the sell side, so dismissing coins outright in favor of bars is foolish. Some coins are more popular and easier to buy and sell than other coins or bars, which is why the prices are higher. You want something that's easy to sell and that trades at the smallest % spread between buy and sell price. A large dealer might have a spread of just 3%, so that's what you should aim for.

Apmex is good (trustworthy), but their prices are not always the best if you're paying by cash/check. Apmex store on eBay usually sells at an apparent markup, but you can pay by credit card and earn cash back. Sometimes they have "sales" (a few percent off) for the most popular items. Have you ever been to a coin shop? If you find a good one that does a lot of business, they might have better prices, but such shops are rare in my experience. If you're planning on buying a lot of gold, then you need to do way more research before diving in. If you're only buying a few ounces and plan to hold on to them for a while, then it doesn't matter, just get some 1oz Eagles (most popular).

scripta said:   
RedWolfe01 said:   He was living in Mexico so had easy access to gold and silver coins at prices close to spot.
Can you explain what living in Mexico has to do with easy access to coins at prices close to spot?

  
You can buy the coins from any bank at prices set by the government -- federally issued and denominated in Pesos.  HE said it was close to spot, I have no idea what he considers "close."  

Apparently sometimes they would direct him to a different bank to pick the coins up.  Also I have seen military convoys delivering money to banks in Ensenada, too.  Wheeled APC with a "do not mess with us" Browning M2 mounted.  I gather that it was payday funds for the government employees and MX is very much a cash economy.  Plus a squad of marines with a scowl that indicated "bank's closed right now!" to me.

I brought back a silver one he gave me for the OTHER friend with all the guns.  I think everyone involved was amused. 

wpgabriel said:   Some are .999 vs .9999, you have to look at the specific product. That extra 9 seems to command an extra premium which I think is a little high.

Coins come with premiums because of supply/demand. You can expect the melt value to be the base value, then they'll typically be worth more depending how much collectors want that particular coin. Obviously older & rarer coins will come with a higher premium. In terms of why modern American Eagles have a premium, I believe it comes from the fact that you don't have to prove that it's pure gold. There's always a risk that if you buy a gold bar, it might be gold Plated tungsten, but the risk of that is so low with a government's officially minted currency (expect for Russia's, which have rusted) that you pay a little extra for that security.

I've had success buying and selling on eBay, but I'm always a little worried because it would be relatively easy for someone to rip you off. I've used Apmex and Northwest Territorial Mint with a lot of success, the former for smaller purchases and the latter for larger purchases from their bullion department. 

 

  http://www.coinweek.com/education/consumer-alert/northwest-territorial-mint-bankrupt-bullion-buyers-may-lose-millions/

umcsom said:     http://www.coinweek.com/education/consumer-alert/northwest-territorial-mint-bankrupt-bullion-buyers-may-lose-millions/
  Wow, crazy. Just checked my order history with them, and my last order was March 2015, so it's been a while since I checked on them. It's too bad, they had great prices on bullion orders.

haveyouseen said:   Why are there different prices for 1oz bars, etc.
arent' they all .9999 % gold. why would I pay one price vs another for one bar vs another? can someone explain?

Hallmarking: is used to guarantee purity and weight.  Buyers pay an additional premium to know the precious metal "is what they think it is".  Generally speaking the additional premium order is:

1.) U.S. Govt Minted
2.) Foreign Govs Minted (Canada, EU, Australia)
3.) Bullion/Mining/Banking Companies (EX: Engelhard, Johnson Matthey, Credit Sussie, Valcombi)
4.) Dealer Hallmarked (APMEX, Provident Metals, Silvertowne)
5.) Bullion unmarked
6.) Industrial or Raw (pellet or shot form) with no hallmark
7.) Junk (Jewelry with stones, computer processors, labor involved to extract or remove the metal)

The motivation for Dealer Hallmarked would be a lower premium to spot in terms of price plus a lower risk of fraud.  This category appeals to the Precious Metal buyer who is looking to hold physical bullion and wants to hold/trade the underlying commodity.  I would describe it as value play.  On the sell you shouldn't expect any premium for the hallmark.

Silver is a commodity, used in industry and also in currency.  Some people view Silver purely as commodity and treat it as an investment.  Others view at as a hedge against inflation and fiat currency systems.  Many others think it is an awful investment, because though it tracks generally with inflation it pays no dividend and has storage costs/risks.

Precious metals are a lightning rod in investment conversations.  I've met successful investors who swear buy a precious metal portfolio allocation (1%-10%) and others who would never consider it.

To close if you are going to invest in physical metals ideally you want the best hallmark for the closet price to spot on that given day.

I personally like eBay (even though Provident is an excellent dealer).  On eBay you can get CC Cash Back .  APMEX, MCM, Liberty and Silvertowne have had some under spot deals the last few months and they are considered reputable dealers, you just need to be patient.  

magika said:   There is no "investing" in gold bars, physical gold is not a good investment. You are investing in a volatile commodity that is priced based on fear and historically under performs just about any other asset class ...
...
*Waits for the FWF resident gold bugs to red me and tell me how the economy will collapse any day now/the evil Fed is going to destroy the dollar/uses cherry picked time periods to argue gold is a fabulous investment because they only include the recent run up in price.*

I will say I'm in the minority of FWF on this issue.   And contrary to some of the above comments I believe a diversified portfolio with an asset allocation of 1-5% of physical bullion is not "tin-foil hat", but rather a prudent inflation hedge.

Arguments aside, let me try to answer OP's question: Help buying Precious Metals?

  • Understand that buying PM on speculation of news, world turmoil or stock market moves is no different than gambling. 
  • Understand the legitimate reason for owning PM as part of your portfolio is an inflation hedge
  • Once you determine the percentage of your portfolio to commit towards an inflation hedge, dollar cost average (DCA) over time to keep that desired Asset Allocation
  • Over the last 5 years eBay has consistently had bullion deals, where you could buy physical metals at or under spot.  

quaters said:   ... you can combine cashback, CC Cash Back and sometimes EbayBucks or discounted gift cards...Not since August you can't -- no referrals, bucks, or gift cards in the coins category.

If you absolutely needed a inflation hedge in your portfolio, there are so many betters ways to do it. Why would you buy gold and silver (ESPECIALLY physical gold and silver) when you could buy some sort of commodities index fund that keeps a basket of items?

scripta said:   
quaters said:   ... you can combine cashback, CC Cash Back and sometimes EbayBucks or discounted gift cards...
Not since August you can't -- no referrals, bucks, or gift cards in the coins category.

  Sorry, you are correct.  I wrote this many months ago.  There was the "world coin" loophole on random year coins for a while too.

magika said:   If you absolutely needed a inflation hedge in your portfolio, there are so many betters ways to do it. Why would you buy gold and silver (ESPECIALLY physical gold and silver) when you could buy some sort of commodities index fund that keeps a basket of items?
You don't "absolutely" need anything.  Some investors find it prudent to have an inflation hedge in PM (silver/gold) and some don't.  You can read for hours on BogleHeads of experienced investors who argue both sides.  Heck, you can read for hours on the "Permanent Portfolio" which has a 25% allocation to Gold.

I found that buying US Govt. Hallmarked physical bullion under or close to spot over the past few years to be a great way to do it.  You can argue the physical vs. fund for hours too.  Here are my reasons for physical:

  • I have a free bank safe deposit box for storage (through relationship banking)
  • I have bought almost all my bullion close to or under spot on the given day
  • There is no expense ratio of a fund (when planning to hold for 20+ years, this adds up)
  • There is no "fund risk" - mismanagement, % allocation to cash etc, to worry about.
  • Privacy -- This is somewhat undervalued IMO.  Once it hits physical form it's almost like cash, not traceable.  Not advocating for anything illegal, but that is worth something.    

I understand you dislike PMs and that is okay.  We can have different views, but some times the gold bugs and preppers put us inflation hedgers in a bad light and it's easy to pile on.

 

Quarters, I do think you are probably the most polite, rational, and intelligent promoter of gold I've ever seen on FWF. Honestly you'd be a good spokesperson for the gold companies (that is a compliment, not trying to be insulting). You have an unusual and rare array of circumstances (free deposit box, buying at or under spot, etc.) where I can see the logic as a small percent of a portfolio. I think your circumstances is probably the most compelling case I've seen on here for buying physical metals. The gold bugs and doomsday preppers are so insane that it is refreshing to run into a sane person on this topic.

In physical gold, here's what matters:
1. Premium to spot (generic bars are the cheapest, but also easiest to fake; I like maples and eagles)
2. Bid-Ask spread (use local dealers to sell and large Internet dealers to buy; for local dealers, look on the US Mint approved dealers on its web site)
3. Storage/delivery - make sure the package comes to a safe address (I only use a PMB) and then store it somewhere you consider safe
4. Get a decent scale (to 0.xx grams) - cost < $25 and learn the weights of what you are buying

Gold may or may not be a good inflation-hedge or a good investment vehicle. Feel free to PM if you have any specific questions. I've bought and sold LOTS of physical gold. You can find a snapshot of it here in Delzy's gold fraud thread IIRC.

You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?

Crazytree said:   You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?
  
Come now crazytree, you know how the gold bugs will answer that! Because when the economy collapses (any day now, Zero Hedge/Alex Jones/the prepper companies have been promising!) these wise hoarders of PMs will be able to survive while the rest of us flail about in utter panic. Now, I know, you may point out that in in an economic collapse the gold won't be worth anything anyways and if it is it will be stolen by roving bands of thugs with more guns than the gold bug. But that would be you using sanity and logic in an area that is not ruled by reason or critical or thinking

The only normal reason for keeping gold in your house would be some sort of numismatic/coin collecting thing. And some of the people who respond to these threads are in that category. Everyone has a hobby, so good for them for finding the cheapest way to do it. Unfortunately a great deal of the other people pushing gold on here are more like the delzys (economic doom porn acolytes) of FWF.

I recently bought a crown vic from Delzy.

magika said:   
Crazytree said:   You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?
  
Come now crazytree, you know how the gold bugs will answer that! Because when the economy collapses (any day now, Zero Hedge/Alex Jones/the prepper companies have been promising!) these wise hoarders of PMs will be able to survive while the rest of us flail about in utter panic. Now, I know, you may point out that in in an economic collapse the gold won't be worth anything anyways and if it is it will be stolen by roving bands of thugs with more guns than the gold bug. But that would be you using sanity and logic in an area that is not ruled by reason or critical or thinking

The only normal reason for keeping gold in your house would be some sort of numismatic/coin collecting thing. And some of the people who respond to these threads are in that category. Everyone has a hobby, so good for them for finding the cheapest way to do it. Unfortunately a great deal of the other people pushing gold on here are more like the delzys (economic doom porn acolytes) of FWF.

  Stick to caps. I've participated in several documentaries on the post apocalypse, and all of them used caps.

magika said:   
Crazytree said:   You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?
  
Come now crazytree, you know how the gold bugs will answer that! Because when the economy collapses (any day now, Zero Hedge/Alex Jones/the prepper companies have been promising!) these wise hoarders of PMs will be able to survive while the rest of us flail about in utter panic. Now, I know, you may point out that in in an economic collapse the gold won't be worth anything anyways and if it is it will be stolen by roving bands of thugs with more guns than the gold bug. But that would be you using sanity and logic in an area that is not ruled by reason or critical or thinking

The only normal reason for keeping gold in your house would be some sort of numismatic/coin collecting thing. And some of the people who respond to these threads are in that category. Everyone has a hobby, so good for them for finding the cheapest way to do it. Unfortunately a great deal of the other people pushing gold on here are more like the delzys (economic doom porn acolytes) of FWF.

  
Yeah, if it gets that bad I would rather have a full pantry than a vault of gold.  You can't eat gold and if "MONEY" is worthless then I am not about to barter my food for chunks of metal.

kamalktk said:   Stick to caps. I've participated in several documentaries on the post apocalypse, and all of them used caps.

RedWolfe01 said:   
magika said:   
Crazytree said:   You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?
  
Come now crazytree, you know how the gold bugs will answer that! Because when the economy collapses (any day now, Zero Hedge/Alex Jones/the prepper companies have been promising!) these wise hoarders of PMs will be able to survive while the rest of us flail about in utter panic. Now, I know, you may point out that in in an economic collapse the gold won't be worth anything anyways and if it is it will be stolen by roving bands of thugs with more guns than the gold bug. But that would be you using sanity and logic in an area that is not ruled by reason or critical or thinking

The only normal reason for keeping gold in your house would be some sort of numismatic/coin collecting thing. And some of the people who respond to these threads are in that category. Everyone has a hobby, so good for them for finding the cheapest way to do it. Unfortunately a great deal of the other people pushing gold on here are more like the delzys (economic doom porn acolytes) of FWF.

  
Yeah, if it gets that bad I would rather have a full pantry than a vault of gold.  You can't eat gold and if "MONEY" is worthless then I am not about to barter my food for chunks of metal.

  The funny part is in that throughout history when cities were invaded or countries otherwise collapsed... gold and currency were essentially worthless.  The only units of currency were food, violence, sex, or protection.

Crazytree said:   
RedWolfe01 said:   
magika said:   
Crazytree said:   You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?
  
Come now crazytree, you know how the gold bugs will answer that! Because when the economy collapses (any day now, Zero Hedge/Alex Jones/the prepper companies have been promising!) these wise hoarders of PMs will be able to survive while the rest of us flail about in utter panic. Now, I know, you may point out that in in an economic collapse the gold won't be worth anything anyways and if it is it will be stolen by roving bands of thugs with more guns than the gold bug. But that would be you using sanity and logic in an area that is not ruled by reason or critical or thinking

The only normal reason for keeping gold in your house would be some sort of numismatic/coin collecting thing. And some of the people who respond to these threads are in that category. Everyone has a hobby, so good for them for finding the cheapest way to do it. Unfortunately a great deal of the other people pushing gold on here are more like the delzys (economic doom porn acolytes) of FWF.

  
Yeah, if it gets that bad I would rather have a full pantry than a vault of gold.  You can't eat gold and if "MONEY" is worthless then I am not about to barter my food for chunks of metal.

  The funny part is in that throughout history when cities were invaded or countries otherwise collapsed... gold and currency were essentially worthless.  The only units of currency were food, violence, sex, or protection.

All this talk about Gold Bugs and Preppers, yet no discussion from anyone but the anti-precious metal crowd.  Almost looking to pick a fight which is fine, you can talk about total breakdown of civilizations which is pretty extreme.

I ask you to evaluate a more realistic scenario which has occurred in the past year in Venezuela.  Would you have rather been holding bolívar or PM this year if you lived there?  Hyperinflation has occurred throughout history all across the globe.  Having a small diversified inflation hedge (Metals, TIPS) to protect from this risk I believe is prudent.  

 

Crazytree said:   You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?
No, I keep them in a safe deposit box at a bank.  Why so much snark?

Crazytree said:   
RedWolfe01 said:   
magika said:   
Crazytree said:   You guys keep gold coins in the house? For what... to pay Cantabrian mercenaries to fight the Parthian Empire and protect grain shipments to Rome?
  
Come now crazytree, you know how the gold bugs will answer that! Because when the economy collapses (any day now, Zero Hedge/Alex Jones/the prepper companies have been promising!) these wise hoarders of PMs will be able to survive while the rest of us flail about in utter panic. Now, I know, you may point out that in in an economic collapse the gold won't be worth anything anyways and if it is it will be stolen by roving bands of thugs with more guns than the gold bug. But that would be you using sanity and logic in an area that is not ruled by reason or critical or thinking

The only normal reason for keeping gold in your house would be some sort of numismatic/coin collecting thing. And some of the people who respond to these threads are in that category. Everyone has a hobby, so good for them for finding the cheapest way to do it. Unfortunately a great deal of the other people pushing gold on here are more like the delzys (economic doom porn acolytes) of FWF.

  
Yeah, if it gets that bad I would rather have a full pantry than a vault of gold.  You can't eat gold and if "MONEY" is worthless then I am not about to barter my food for chunks of metal.

  The funny part is in that throughout history when cities were invaded or countries otherwise collapsed... gold and currency were essentially worthless.  The only units of currency were food, violence, sex, or protection.

  Not so sure about that.  Confederate banknotes were worthless after the civil war.  Reichsmarks also after the WW2.  I would think that many of those with gold in those situations didn't have to trade in "food, violence, sex, and protection".  And in those countries that have had massive inflation/currency devaluation, holding gold would have been one way of preserving "wealth".   Is there any printed currency that has held it's "value" over centuries?  I honestly don't know the answer to that question but if anyone here from the anti gold side has the answer, please enlighten me. 

I consider purchase of gold to be an insurance policy for an end of the world, economic collapse, society collapse event or hyperinflation. To know if its worth investing in gold you have to have a sense of the likelihood of the end of our society or at least a cataclysmic collapse of the US economy and/or government or the risk of hyperinflation.

Consider that there could be a global pandemic that affectedly shuts down everything and turns the world into anarchy. In that kind of scenario gold assets may hold value after things settle down. But whats the risk of such a pandemic? 1 in 100 in our lifetime? 1 in 10? 1 in 100,000? I think it is almost anyones guess.

So deciding if you should invest in gold requires you to guess what the risk of a catastrophe or hyperinflation are and then decide if spending the money to buy gold to insure versus that risk makes sense.

There are probably 10 other more likely risk that I'm deciding not to spend money to insure myself against. But thats based on my personal assessment (opinion) of the risks of catastrophie.

My relative just spent something like $5k to earthquake proof their house. The New Yorker ran a scary article that convinced a large % of the northwest that an earthquake is about to kill us all. (I'm mocking / paraphrasing). but I'm not wasting money on that 1% chance in my lifetime that the 'big one' might knock my houses down.


The more scary stuff happens the more afraid people are and the more they justify buying gold.

If it was just hyperinflation I am worried about then I'd just buy TIPS & real estate.

It is MUCH more cost efficient to have insurance than to "Earthquake-proof" your home unless the insurance gives you a discount for doing so that equals the cost over a fairly short term.

I mean if you are that paranoid you have insurance anyway. If the insurance/disaster system could handle New Orleans and Hurricanes then they can handle an earthquake too.

quaters said:   I ask you to evaluate a more realistic scenario which has occurred in the past year in Venezuela.  Would you have rather been holding bolívar or PM this year if you lived there?  Hyperinflation has occurred throughout history all across the globe.  Having a small diversified inflation hedge (Metals, TIPS) to protect from this risk I believe is prudent.  

 

  
I invest in PM, but I would like to point out that being invested in the stock market is a fine hedge against hyper-inflation. The stock market rose in lockstep with the devaluation of the Weimar Mark during their hyperinflation in the 1920s. If you look at Venezuela, the same thing looks to be true, the stock market there is "spiking" while their currency falls. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/stock-market

This is due to the fact that businesses hold hard assets and can adjust their prices to the new currency values on the fly. I'm sure hyperinflation hurts many businesses, but if you buy an index, you'll be protected from hyperinflation.

quaters said:   All this talk about Gold Bugs and Preppers, yet no discussion from anyone but the anti-precious metal crowd.  Almost looking to pick a fight which is fine, you can talk about total breakdown of civilizations which is pretty extreme.

I ask you to evaluate a more realistic scenario which has occurred in the past year in Venezuela.  Would you have rather been holding bolívar or PM this year if you lived there?  Hyperinflation has occurred throughout history all across the globe.  Having a small diversified inflation hedge (Metals, TIPS) to protect from this risk I believe is prudent.  

 

Some people love the establishment and hate you if you don't love it too.  How dare you have the nerve to say that your fundamental philosophical view of life and the world are different than theirs???

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