Security deposit disagreement - What is the 'move out' date?

Archived From: Finance
  • Page :
  • 1
  • Text Only
Voting History
rated:
I was renting an apartment from a management company in Kansas. There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee and give 60 days notice.

I got a new job in a new city and decided to exercise this. I gave the 60 day notice to the company immediately. I was on the hook for the fee and the next 60 days of rent which I paid with no issues.

However, I moved out just two weeks after giving my 60 day notice. I had a move out inspection at that time (December) with the property manager and gave her my set of keys that day.

In Kansas my understanding is that they need to return the deposit along with a list of deductions within 30 days of the move out date. The management company is operating as if the move out date is in February (the end of the 60 day notice). I believe it should be the date I relinquished the keys and possession of the unit. Is this a grey area or is it clearly defined somewhere?

This has come up as an issue because today I received a letter from the management company with a few more deductions to my security deposit than what was initially written on my move out inspection I did with the property manager (deductions that I do not believe are valid...but that is another issue). I believe that since they did not get me the list of those deductions and my deposit within 30 days of me physically moving out and returning keys that I am owed the full deposit. I believe their response to this questioning will be my move-out date was actually in February (even though I had returned keys and vacated two months earlier).

Any thoughts?  I'm hoping a few landlords here can chime in with their experience.  

Member Summary
Most Recent Posts
Since you technically paid 60 days of "rent," you weren't legally moved-out until those 60 days were up. Yes, you turned... (more)

meade18 (Feb. 20, 2017 @ 2:02p) |

Most judges consider returning of keys a change of possession, and the fee plus 60 days rent a penalty for breaking the ... (more)

tightpapa (Feb. 20, 2017 @ 5:26p) |

OP, what ended up happening?

oppidum (Mar. 14, 2017 @ 7:57p) |

Staff Summary
Thanks for visiting FatWallet.com. Join for free to remove this ad.

erhnam52 said:   In Kansas my understanding is that they need to return the deposit along with a list of deductions within 30 days of the move out date. The management company is operating as if the move out date is in February (the end of the 60 day notice). I believe it should be the date I relinquished the keys and possession of the unit. Is this a grey area or is it clearly defined somewhere?
  This depends on exactly how the law/local regulation is worded. Perhaps you can google the relevant code in Kansas and post here or there is someone here familiar with Kansas LL-tenant laws.
erhnam52 said:   This has come up as an issue because today I received a letter from the management company with a few more deductions to my security deposit than what was initially written on my move out inspection I did with the property manager (deductions that I do not believe are valid...but that is another issue).
 

  What were the extra deductions they added? Do you have a signed document from the move-out day where there was an agreement about what you owe from the security deposit.
 

http://www.kslegislature.org/li_2012/b2011_12/statute/058_000_00...

...If the landlord proposes to retain any portion of the security deposit for expenses, damages or other legally allowable charges under the provisions of the rental agreement, other than rent, the landlord shall return the balance of the security deposit to the tenant within 14 days after the determination of the amount of such expenses, damages or other charges, but in no event to exceed 30 days after termination of the tenancy, delivery of possession and demand by the tenant. If the tenant does not make such demand within 30 days after termination of the tenancy, the landlord shall mail that portion of the security deposit due the tenant to the tenant's last-known address.
(d) If the landlord fails to comply with subsection (c) of this section, the tenant may recover that portion of the security deposit due together with damages in an amount equal to 1 1/2 the amount wrongfully withheld.




The extra deductions were for "Trash/Items left in bathroom" and "Rotary scrub" carpet cleaning.

I do have the signed move-out inspection from December where no items were marked for deductions. I did a walk through with the property manager and there was no trash or items left in the bathrooms and no mention about possible carpet cleaning. I had no pets and the carpet/floors were in normal condition when I moved out.

Notice is irrelevant to move out and possession

IANAL, but that statute reads pretty clearly to me as supporting your position, return of security deposit within 30 days after your walkthrough and handover of keys. Your tenancy ended then, regardless of any additional rent due.

I think you should take a step back, though, forget about the technicalities and focus on the facts. You have documentation from the landlord showing that an inspection was completed and no issues were noted. Any judge would side with you with that sort of documentation.

Next step is probably a polite, certified letter along the lines of: "Dear Landord, we completed a move-out inspection and no issues were noted. Please return my entire security deposit of $x,xxx promptly." Nine times out of ten, that gentle pushback indicates that you're serious and they'll drop the bogus claims.

I agree that is probably the best first step to make.  Politely request the whole deposit back promptly.

This group has been difficult to deal with so I do expect pushback from the leasing consultants and manager.

also if they listed the apartment for rent after you left that is pretty clear evidence the lease was over.

erhnam52 said:   The extra deductions were for "Trash/Items left in bathroom" and "Rotary scrub" carpet cleaning.
 

Didn't you take pictures during the inspection?

http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else.
Edit one of the questions will be from page 21.

tightpapa said:   http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else. 

  this is what op say
There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee
it's a fee

While I was in similar situation in Georgia state, I gave 60 days notice and fee and left within 15 days and
Handled them keys.
My apartment was not leased during that 60 day period by apartment management.
Also they allowed me to disconnect water and electricity on the day I handed the keys.
Security deposit came back as refund cheque after 60 days is over....
It's based on state or property management...

if not so urgent then u can wait and see after 60 days...

Is the 60 days rent liquidated damages or just notice? If it's notice, they may owe you rent if they re-rented your unit during the 60 day period.

rufflesinc said:   
tightpapa said:   http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else. 

  this is what op say
There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee
it's a fee

  It would have to explicitly be liquidated damages AND be allowed under Kansas law.

stanolshefski said:   rufflesinc said:   
tightpapa said:   http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else. 

  this is what op say
There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee
it's a fee

  It would have to explicitly be liquidated damages AND be allowed under Kansas law.

Strange that Kansas would regulate freedom of contract to such an extreme to not allow tenant and landlord to come to agreement of how to allow tenant to end lease. What's the matter with Kansas?

rufflesinc said:   
stanolshefski said:   
rufflesinc said:   
tightpapa said:   http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else. 

  this is what op say
There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee
it's a fee

  It would have to explicitly be liquidated damages AND be allowed under Kansas law.

Strange that Kansas would regulate freedom of contract to such an extreme to not allow tenant and landlord to come to agreement of how to allow tenant to end lease. What's the matter with Kansas?

  Michigan doesn't highly regulate landlord/tenant relations?

stanolshefski said:   
rufflesinc said:   
stanolshefski said:   
rufflesinc said:   
tightpapa said:   http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else. 

  this is what op say
There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee
it's a fee

  It would have to explicitly be liquidated damages AND be allowed under Kansas law.

Strange that Kansas would regulate freedom of contract to such an extreme to not allow tenant and landlord to come to agreement of how to allow tenant to end lease. What's the matter with Kansas?

  Michigan doesn't highly regulate landlord/tenant relations?

  they don't exclude the ability for LL and tenant to negotiate a way for tenant to be released from the lease. And based on my discussions with LL from other states, neither do other states.

If a tenant leaves early but with no such fee arrangement, then landlord can demand rent to be continued to be paid. If there is a new tenant in place, then that would be double dip. But that is not what happened here. And you seem to suggest that the fee arrangement to terminate the lease is illegal in KS>

It doesn't look like anyone moved in since I see my unit available on their website.

I just want my full security deposit back as initially agreed at my move out inspection. I will ask nicely for them to honor the signed sheet. I believe they will come back and say it is not binding and they 'found stuff'.

That is why I came here asking for help because I believe this technicality of them waiting 45 days past me returning possession of the unit to them puts them outside the window defined by Kansas law and should result in me getting my 100% deposit back.

erhnam52 said:   It doesn't look like anyone moved in since I see my unit available on their website.

I just want my full security deposit back as initially agreed at my move out inspection. I will ask nicely for them to honor the signed sheet. I believe they will come back and say it is not binding and they 'found stuff'.

That is why I came here asking for help because I believe this technicality of them waiting 45 days past me returning possession of the unit to them puts them outside the window defined by Kansas law and should result in me getting my 100% deposit back.

  You are correct. But you may have to get a lawyer involved, but if you can get them to comply without involving a lawyer it would be to your benefit. 
When you turned over the keys the 30 days started. So after 30 days they cannot charge you damages.

rufflesinc said:   
tightpapa said:   http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else. 

  this is what op say
There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee
it's a fee

  He said fee *and 60 days. So the fee is separated from the 60 days rent. But to be sure of this I would have to see the lease. But that is a moot point if they have not rented it.

tightpapa said:   
rufflesinc said:   
tightpapa said:   http://www.kansaslegalservices.org/files/Kansas%20Landlords%20Ha... 
Read this and there will be a test tomorrow
Do you know if the place was rented? They cannot get double rent... from you and someone else. 

  this is what op say
There was an amendment in my lease that allows me to break the least if I pay a fee
it's a fee

  He said fee *and 60 days. So the fee is separated from the 60 days rent. But to be sure of this I would have to see the lease. But that is a mute point if they have not rented it.

  moot. moot point.

solarUS said:   
tightpapa said:   
  He said fee *and 60 days. So the fee is separated from the 60 days rent. But to be sure of this I would have to see the lease. But that is a mute point if they have not rented it.

  moot. moot point.

Or maybe Moo point? You know, cow's talk...

Ecuadorgr said:   
solarUS said:   
tightpapa said:   
  He said fee *and 60 days. So the fee is separated from the 60 days rent. But to be sure of this I would have to see the lease. But that is a mute point if they have not rented it.

  moot. moot point.

Or maybe Moo point? You know, cow's talk...

  Moo Mooney point?

Their aint no excquse four porr spelling. Or gramer 

Ecuadorgr said:   
solarUS said:   
tightpapa said:   
  He said fee *and 60 days. So the fee is separated from the 60 days rent. But to be sure of this I would have to see the lease. But that is a mute point if they have not rented it.

  moot. moot point.

Or maybe Moo point? You know, cow's talk...

  where is qcumber when you need him

No good deed goes unpunished right?  You could have just left and lost your security deposit.  They could try to sue you for breaking the lease but how are they going to serve you if you're out of state?  They can't.  As it stands now you're out your security deposit plus two months rent plus early termination fee.  This sucks because you're being punished for doing the right thing.

Sounds like they are either dumb and got your apartment confused with another one which is why they haven't returned your deposit back or they are playing hardball.  

Will you be returning to Kansas any time soon? You could sue them in small claims court in your new state (just need a notary to sign it - http://www.kscourts.org/pdf/small-claims/Small%20Claims%20Proced... ) and then just make sure you attend the court date in Kansas. $50 fee for claims from $500 - $4,000.

monohydr4te said:   No good deed goes unpunished right?  You could have just left and lost your security deposit.  They could try to sue you for breaking the lease but how are they going to serve you if you're out of state?  They can't.  As it stands now you're out your security deposit plus two months rent plus early termination fee.  This sucks because you're being punished for doing the right thing.

Sounds like they are either dumb and got your apartment confused with another one which is why they haven't returned your deposit back or they are playing hardball.  

Will you be returning to Kansas any time soon? You could sue them in small claims court in your new state (just need a notary to sign it - http://www.kscourts.org/pdf/small-claims/Small%20Claims%20Proced... ) and then just make sure you attend the court date in Kansas. $50 fee for claims from $500 - $4,000.

  
I don't plan on returning to Kansas anytime soon.  I'd like to avoid going to court to save me time+money. 

Since you technically paid 60 days of "rent," you weren't legally moved-out until those 60 days were up. Yes, you turned over your keys after 15 days and did a walk-through, but if you had come back anytime within those next 45 days, you would have had a legal right to continue living in the apartment up until the 60th day. Since that was the case, it would have been dumb for them to give you your security deposit back within 30 days of your walk-through date. I don't think you can beat them on this technicality, unfortunately. But since you are in the right (don't actually owe damages), it's definitely a tactic worth using when requesting the rest of your money back. Your walk-through is going to give you stronger ground to stand on than this 30-day rule though.

meade18 said:   Since you technically paid 60 days of "rent," you weren't legally moved-out until those 60 days were up. Yes, you turned over your keys after 15 days and did a walk-through, but if you had come back anytime within those next 45 days, you would have had a legal right to continue living in the apartment up until the 60th day. Since that was the case, it would have been dumb for them to give you your security deposit back within 30 days of your walk-through date. I don't think you can beat them on this technicality, unfortunately. But since you are in the right (don't actually owe damages), it's definitely a tactic worth using when requesting the rest of your money back. You walk-through is going to give you stronger ground to stand on than this 30-day rule though.
  Most judges consider returning of keys a change of possession, and the fee plus 60 days rent a penalty for breaking the lease.

OP, what ended up happening?



Disclaimer: By providing links to other sites, FatWallet.com does not guarantee, approve or endorse the information or products available at these sites, nor does a link indicate any association with or endorsement by the linked site to FatWallet.com.

Thanks for visiting FatWallet.com. Join for free to remove this ad.

While FatWallet makes every effort to post correct information, offers are subject to change without notice.
Some exclusions may apply based upon merchant policies.
© 1999-2017