Gender pay gap

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Every news article I'm reading today mentions the ~78c on the dollar pay gap between men and women in the US.  But also for years this has been refuted by analysis of that statement and the actual numbers.  I.e. it doesn't compensate for difference in hours worked, professions, or career gaps, etc.

I think if there's a gap for the exact same job (e.g. starting salary for a cashier, or cop, or programmer, or lawyer), it's definitely worth measuring and fixing (because it's probably illegal), but why does the media continue to propagate false statistics?  Doesn't it just hurt their credibility and cause?  However, I read an article on Forbes where even college women believe that the statistic is real - i.e. that they will graduate and make less for the same work than men purely because of gender.

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You didn't say anything about access. You said BENEFIT. Sounds like encouragement to me.

meade18 (Apr. 26, 2017 @ 9:34a) |

Here, i'll parse it for you. They would benefit from access to birth control.

rufflesinc (Apr. 26, 2017 @ 9:45a) |

Oh, I see. You consider abortion to be a form of birth control. See here I was thinking you considered preventing a preg... (more)

meade18 (Apr. 26, 2017 @ 10:03a) |

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However, after adjusting for choices made by male and female workers in college major, occupation, working hours, and parental leave, multiple studies find that pay rates between males and females varied by 5–6.6% or, females earning 94 cents to every dollar earned by their male counterparts. The remaining 6% of the gap has been speculated to originate from deficiency in salary negotiation skills and gender discrimination.

  
In engineering, females are earning 10-20% higher than their male counterparts.

libralibra said:   Every news article I'm reading today mentions the ~78c on the dollar pay gap between men and women in the US.  
  That doesn't seem possible. If a job was advertised as paying $10/hour and both men and woman get hired, it's pretty easy to look at your paycheck and see if you only got paid at $7.80/hour as a woman. 

Of course I don't have the link, but wasn't there a recent paper out that basically said that the gender pay gap in high-level positions was almost completely explained by the career-wrecking time off taken by the women? With childless women making 100% of men's salaries.

Here's a link Move to Iceland and stop worrying so much.

My simplistic view of it has always been that if women are paid less for identical work wouldn't men never get hired?

But as I've worked in different fields I have seen women who are paid less who do *more* work than their male counterparts. They are unable to use leverage of quitting to find another job to demand their pay be raised, their employers know this and abuse it.


The issue is important, but it seems the outrage-based, pay-per-click news cycle means this typically is covered very poorly and with little scientific rigor.  The headline number fails to control for obviously relevant and "fair" factors like whether you're working as a doctor or a barista.  AAUW found about 2/3 of the gap went away after controlling for career choice and hours worked, leaving perhaps a 6% gap.  More recent studies suggest this is even smaller or even zero/reversed, especially among recent college graduates and given the big tech companies' push to promote their diversity stats.

I don't know why the women aren't clamoring for their fair share of workplace fatalities (93% guys).  I mean, those jobs in mining, construction, and war pay pretty well if they don't kill you.
 

Not really a mystery. People tend to notice things that agree with their preconcieved notions and disregard those that don't.

J-school disproportionately has drawn people who view it as an avenue for social activism for a long time. One of the story formats that they thus find appealing and worthy of reporting is that of a disadvantaged population being kept down by "The Man." Either consciously or unconsciously, anything that challenges such a construct is "not news."

As a woman I (of course) do believe in pay gap. Not at the entry level, which would be highly illegal, but much later in one's career. I think most of it is caused by

1) Latent or blatant discrimination. Being in a male dominated industry I've heard more than once about men who think women are not good enough for the job. These are usually older men or immigrants from countries that traditionally value women less. Then there's the bro culture. It's much harder to feel motivated or make connections when most of the co-workers either ignore you or hit on you. Also many managers believe women will not fight for a raise, so they simply ignore their requests for promotion or raise (yes they can find another job, but it's not always that easy).
2) Child care. Men and women will never be equal when women alone have the bear the burden of pregnancy. I have a female co-worker who has a stay-at-home husband with 2 kids. Yet she's the one that had to take time off work during/after pregnancy/breastfeeding. She also takes the kids to get shots because they cry less when the mother is present. While having children is a choice, it usually hurts the mother's career more than the father's.


xerty said:   I mean, those jobs in mining, construction, and war pay pretty well if they don't kill you.
Jeez, I wonder why women don't want to join the military where your male comrades can be sharing nude photos of you.
  

TravelerMSY said:    With childless women making 100% of men's salaries.
  The world needs more childless women!
In engineering, females are earning 10-20% higher than their male counterparts.
Same reason bars and nightclubs have no cover and free drinks for women? #iwd2017 #daywithoutwomen

PrincipalMember said:   .. In engineering, females are earning 10-20% higher than their male counterparts.



Not in general.

Not apples to apples.

TravelerMSY said:   Of course I don't have the link, but wasn't there a recent paper out that basically said that the gender pay gap in high-level positions was almost completely explained by the career-wrecking time off taken by the women? With childless women making 100% of men's salaries.
  
Isn't that part of the problem though? We say we value children and family, but have almost no support in place to allow equal participation in the family unit when both parents work.

Most women don't get any paid maternity leave. Certainly most men don't. Hell, I'm lucky if there is even a changing table in the men's restroom at most restaurants.

Maybe if we afforded more and more equitable benefits to both parents this problem could be minimized.

WhyIsTheSkyBlue said:   

xerty said:   I mean, those jobs in mining, construction, and war pay pretty well if they don't kill you.
Jeez, I wonder why women don't want to join the military where your male comrades can be sharing nude photos of you.
  


One point for you.

But still.... Many better paid jobs are compensated better simply due to danger level. OTOH I don't think we necessarily let women have many of those jobs in decades past.

Dangerous jobs pay more
+
Women weren't allowed to do dangerous man work
=
Men make more

Dragonsnack said:   TravelerMSY said:   Of course I don't have the link, but wasn't there a recent paper out that basically said that the gender pay gap in high-level positions was almost completely explained by the career-wrecking time off taken by the women? With childless women making 100% of men's salaries.
  
Isn't that part of the problem though? We say we value children and family, but have almost no support in place to allow equal participation in the family unit when both parents work.

Most women don't get any paid maternity leave. Certainly most men don't. Hell, I'm lucky if there is even a changing table in the men's restroom at most restaurants.

Maybe if we afforded more and more equitable benefits to both parents this problem could be minimized.



Furthermore we say we value children and education and yet we pay daycare workers and teachers poorly.

Female dominated professions aren't compensated well.

Why do nurses make less than engineers?
Why do daycare workers make less than laborers?

IMBoring25 said:   Not really a mystery. People tend to notice things that agree with their preconcieved notions and disregard those that don't.

J-school disproportionately has drawn people who view it as an avenue for social activism for a long time. One of the story formats that they thus find appealing and worthy of reporting is that of a disadvantaged population being kept down by "The Man." Either consciously or unconsciously, anything that challenges such a construct is "not news."



Today anything that gets clicks passes for news

Dragonsnack said:   
TravelerMSY said:   Of course I don't have the link, but wasn't there a recent paper out that basically said that the gender pay gap in high-level positions was almost completely explained by the career-wrecking time off taken by the women? With childless women making 100% of men's salaries.
  
Isn't that part of the problem though? We say we value children and family, but have almost no support in place to allow equal participation in the family unit when both parents work.

Most women don't get any paid maternity leave. Certainly most men don't. Hell, I'm lucky if there is even a changing table in the men's restroom at most restaurants.

Maybe if we afforded more and more equitable benefits to both parents this problem could be minimized.

 The country (and world) is overpopulated, and natural resources are getting scarcer and scarcer.

We don't need to incentivize people having kids; that's their own choice to make (including whatever sacrifices they must make).

jerosen said:   
Furthermore we say we value children and education and yet we pay daycare workers and teachers poorly.

Female dominated professions aren't compensated well.

Why do nurses make less than engineers?
Why do daycare workers make less than laborers?

  
Simple- supply and demand.

Except for maybe laborers who are union members- they contribute enough the to Democratic party to ensure that they get inflated/above-market compensation.

ArmchairArchitect said:   
 
 The country (and world) is overpopulated, and natural resources are getting scarcer and scarcer.

 

  Tell that to germany and japan, they have a demographic problem and lack younger workers.

WhyIsTheSkyBlue said:   As a woman I (of course) do believe in pay gap. Not at the entry level, which would be highly illegal, but much later in one's career. I think most of it is caused by

1) Latent or blatant discrimination. Being in a male dominated industry I've heard more than once about men who think women are not good enough for the job. These are usually older men or immigrants from countries that traditionally value women less. Then there's the bro culture. It's much harder to feel motivated or make connections when most of the co-workers either ignore you or hit on you. Also many managers believe women will not fight for a raise, so they simply ignore their requests for promotion or raise (yes they can find another job, but it's not always that easy).
2) Child care. Men and women will never be equal when women alone have the bear the burden of pregnancy. I have a female co-worker who has a stay-at-home husband with 2 kids. Yet she's the one that had to take time off work during/after pregnancy/breastfeeding. She also takes the kids to get shots because they cry less when the mother is present. While having children is a choice, it usually hurts the mother's career more than the father's.
xerty said:   I mean, those jobs in mining, construction, and war pay pretty well if they don't kill you.
Jeez, I wonder why women don't want to join the military where your male comrades can be sharing nude photos of you.
  
 

*sigh* 

you have some actual good points, but your attitude sucks. this from a progressive man who dragged his fiancee to the women's march.

remember it's just about equality, and not being owed everything you want by the world at large.

jerosen said:   
Dragonsnack said:   
TravelerMSY said:   Of course I don't have the link, but wasn't there a recent paper out that basically said that the gender pay gap in high-level positions was almost completely explained by the career-wrecking time off taken by the women? With childless women making 100% of men's salaries.
  
Isn't that part of the problem though? We say we value children and family, but have almost no support in place to allow equal participation in the family unit when both parents work.

Most women don't get any paid maternity leave. Certainly most men don't. Hell, I'm lucky if there is even a changing table in the men's restroom at most restaurants.

Maybe if we afforded more and more equitable benefits to both parents this problem could be minimized.



Furthermore we say we value children and education and yet we pay daycare workers and teachers poorly.

Female dominated professions aren't compensated well.

Why do nurses make less than engineers?
Why do daycare workers make less than laborers?

  Why do daycare workers make so little? Because most people can't afford $800/week for daycare. It's a highly regulated business that only allows a small ratio of children per caregiver.  Again, Wages, rent and expenses eat into profits. Raise the wage raise the cost for everyone and daycare will be unaffordable to lower income families. 

letsspendlotsofmoney said:   . It's a highly regulated business that only allows a small ratio of children per caregiver.  Again, Wages, rent and expenses eat into profits.
 

  we need to repeal these regulations and unleash the daycare small businesses. lower costs, higher wages, higher profits for everyone!

(i don't have kids)

letsspendlotsofmoney said:   jerosen said:   
Dragonsnack said:   
TravelerMSY said:   Of course I don't have the link, but wasn't there a recent paper out that basically said that the gender pay gap in high-level positions was almost completely explained by the career-wrecking time off taken by the women? With childless women making 100% of men's salaries.
  
Isn't that part of the problem though? We say we value children and family, but have almost no support in place to allow equal participation in the family unit when both parents work.

Most women don't get any paid maternity leave. Certainly most men don't. Hell, I'm lucky if there is even a changing table in the men's restroom at most restaurants.

Maybe if we afforded more and more equitable benefits to both parents this problem could be minimized.



Furthermore we say we value children and education and yet we pay daycare workers and teachers poorly.

Female dominated professions aren't compensated well.

Why do nurses make less than engineers?
Why do daycare workers make less than laborers?

  Why do daycare workers make so little? Because most people can't afford $800/week for daycare. It's a highly regulated business that only allows a small ratio of children per caregiver.  Again, Wages, rent and expenses eat into profits. Raise the wage raise the cost for everyone and daycare will be unaffordable to lower income families. 



Why do we as a society value the task and the workers so little?


We can find money for what we value.

letsspendlotsofmoney said:   Why do daycare workers make so little? Because most people can't afford $800/week for daycare. 
  Or because you don't need a 4 year degree or even a high school diploma just to watch kids all day. 

Why do teenage boys get $10 to spend 20 minutes mowing a lawn but teenage girls are usually doing OK to get that much for an hour of babysitting?

Why do we only tend to see boys mowing lawns and only girls babysitting?

rufflesinc said:   letsspendlotsofmoney said:   . It's a highly regulated business that only allows a small ratio of children per caregiver.  Again, Wages, rent and expenses eat into profits.
 

  we need to repeal these regulations and unleash the daycare small businesses. lower costs, higher wages, higher profits for everyone!

(i don't have kids)



I don't think the regulation on daycare is that bad and I think it's warranted and necessary.

atikovi said:   letsspendlotsofmoney said:   Why do daycare workers make so little? Because most people can't afford $800/week for daycare. 
  Or because you don't need a 4 year degree or even a high school diploma just to watch kids all day. 



Education isn't needed for road crews but those guys make well more than daycare workers.

jerosen said:   
rufflesinc said:   
letsspendlotsofmoney said:   . It's a highly regulated business that only allows a small ratio of children per caregiver.  Again, Wages, rent and expenses eat into profits.
  we need to repeal these regulations and unleash the daycare small businesses. lower costs, higher wages, higher profits for everyone!

(i don't have kids)



I don't think the regulation on daycare is that bad and I think it's warranted and necessary.

  #sarcasm

jerosen said:   Why do teenage boys get $10 to spend 20 minutes mowing a lawn but teenage girls are usually doing OK to get that much for an hour of babysitting?

Why do we only tend to see boys mowing lawns and only girls babysitting?

  
How many neighborhood girls have come to your house to offer to mow your lawn?

(and when was the last time mowing your lawn with a push mower only took 20 minutes? -- I have a small yard, as things go, and it takes quite a bit longer than that)



And for what it's worth, after I graduated and moved out, my sister was next in line to have to spend a couple hours (3 acres of grass) every weekend on the riding mower at my parents' house.

jerosen said:   
atikovi said:   
letsspendlotsofmoney said:   Why do daycare workers make so little? Because most people can't afford $800/week for daycare. 
  Or because you don't need a 4 year degree or even a high school diploma just to watch kids all day. 



Education isn't needed for road crews but those guys make well more than daycare workers.

  
I suspect the on-the-job fatality rate for road crews is dramatically higher than that for daycare workers.

(and in my area, I have seen numerous women on local road crews, they are just less common)


I also suspect that on the employee side of the equation, there is a much larger population of women who "want to work with kids" than there are people, in general, that want to work on road crews.


From State of Michigan
Disclaimer
In Michigan infants are a 1-4 ratio a 5th child requires 2 caregivers, toddlers are 1-8 ratio.   

arch8ngel said:   
jerosen said:   
atikovi said:   
letsspendlotsofmoney said:   Why do daycare workers make so little? Because most people can't afford $800/week for daycare. 
  Or because you don't need a 4 year degree or even a high school diploma just to watch kids all day. 



Education isn't needed for road crews but those guys make well more than daycare workers.

  
I suspect the on-the-job fatality rate for road crews is dramatically higher than that for daycare workers.

(and in my area, I have seen numerous women on local road crews, they are just less common)


I also suspect that on the employee side of the equation, there is a much larger population of women who "want to work with kids" than there are people, in general, that want to work on road crews.

  "  there is a much larger population of women who "want to work with kids"   this would be true and if man works at a daycare they are either gay or a pedophile.  Why else would a man want to work at a daycare? For a job and money, but many fear having a man take care of kids. 

letsspendlotsofmoney said:   In Michigan infants are a 1-4 ratio a 5th child requires 2 caregivers, toddlers are 1-8 ratio.   
  pfft when i was their age it was me and 20 other kids, barefoot, in the snow, on a hill

letsspendlotsofmoney said:   
arch8ngel said:   
I also suspect that on the employee side of the equation, there is a much larger population of women who "want to work with kids" than there are people, in general, that want to work on road crews.
 

  "  there is a much larger population of women who "want to work with kids"   this would be true and if man works at a daycare they are either gay or a pedophile.  Why else would a man want to work at a daycare? For a job and money, but many fear having a man take care of kids. 

There were a couple of relatively young male childcare workers at my kid's previous daycare, and I don't recall anybody being uneasy about it, in particular.


My comment was more along the lines of having heard quite a few girls, over the years, state their "career" interest explicitly as "I want to work with kids". (and no other clearly defining focus).

Now, it's a totally valid criticism as to whether or not our society encourages girls toward this in the first place and discourages boys from a similar interest.

But that is entirely separate from what the job of "daycare worker" is actually worth and what the market for daycare can actually bear.

arch8ngel said:   
 
My comment was more along the lines of having heard quite a few girls, over the years, state their "career" interest explicitly as "I want to work with kids". (and no other clearly defining focus).

 

 Next time tell them to become a pediatrician . Or a pediatric surgeon if she'd rather do it when they aren't kicking and screaming 

atikovi said:   
letsspendlotsofmoney said:   Why do daycare workers make so little? Because most people can't afford $800/week for daycare. 
  Or because you don't need a 4 year degree or even a high school diploma just to watch kids all day. 

Better yet.. There are no requirements for having children, you have to get a marriage license or a drivers license but anyone can have kids. 

speedracer714 said:   In other news, dihydrogen monoxide is poisonous and will kill you if you ingest too much of it.
 

Yep, the seminal study "How gullible are we?" 

jerosen said:   Why do teenage boys get $10 to spend 20 minutes mowing a lawn but teenage girls are usually doing OK to get that much for an hour of babysitting?

 

It's a lot harder work cutting grass when it's 95F outside under the hot sun than it is sitting a kid or two in an air conditioned house while you can watch TV or surf the net and get free snacks and drinks. Back in the 70's I cut townhouse lawns and got $2, or $3 for an end unit. I thought it was pretty good money for the time.


Skipping 209 Messages...
Oh, I see. You consider abortion to be a form of birth control. See here I was thinking you considered preventing a pregnancy different than ending one. My bad.

This is how I read your post:

The "lower IQ population" would benefit from
1. more sex ed
2. access to birth control
3. abortion

What you meant was:
The "lower IQ population" would benefit from
1. more sex ed
2. access to birth control
3. access to abortion

Correct?

I suppose that is a little bit better.  You don't want them to have more abortions, but you want them to have more access to abortions. I guess if you don't actually advocate for eugenics but hope for more access to it, you're not saying anything bad.

 



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