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Wanna Help me Appeal BS Citation for "Fire Hazard"?

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rated:
Got a $100 citation (along with dazzling photos) for "Weeds & Grasses" from one of San Bernardino County's revenue goons.

Code:

(a) Desert Area means all portions of the unincorporated area of the County of XX, north & east of National Forest boundaries.

(b) Flammable vegetation in the Desert Area means:

(1) blah, blah

(2) blah,blah

(3) blah, blah

(4) Grass over four inches in height (apparently "over four inches in girth" is ok ).

Have 20 days to appeal.

Here's my rebuttal.
Feel free to critique, chastise, or troll. 


APPEAL: XXXXXXXX

Citation alleges...(Property) violated...(Code) on X/XX/XX. According to Code, it applies to Desert Areas. They're “all portions of the unincorporated areas of the County of XX, north and east of the National Forest boundaries.”  Additionally, flammable vegetation in Desert Area is "Grass over four inches in height."

Code
Code lacks definitions of  (1) “unincorporated areas,” (2) “north and east of the National Forest boundaries,” (3) “National Forest boundaries, or (4) “grass.” Therefore, Code is void for vagueness.

If not void for vagueness, Code excludes Property, since it’s within XXXX, an incorporated city on 5/24/17 (citation date).  My definition of ”an incorporated area” is both legal and customary.  So, absent a different definition in Code, the legal-and-customary definition is what applies in this case by default.  

Citation
(This section applies if XX County claims that Code is neither void for vagueness nor inapplicable to Property).

Citation features a substantial inaccuracy, describing alleged violation of Code as “Weeds and Grasses.” But Code limits itself to “grass.” (Exact language from Code: “Grass over four inches in height”).

An ambiguity is whether Citation is for “weeds," “grass," or "weeds and grasses." If “weeds,” Citation is void, since Code excludes "weeds."  If “grass,” Citation is void, since "grass" lacks a definition in Code. If "weeds and grasses," Citation is void, since Code neither mentions nor defines " weeds and grasses."

The Code requires that “grass" exceed four inches in height.  But photos of alleged violation fail to show any measurements.  For that reason, it can’t be shown that Property violated Code on 5/24/2017 (Citation date).

Photos also fail to include either address markers or GPS coordinates.  As a result, it can’t be shown that photos depict Property on 5/24/17 (Citation date).

To summarize, Code is void for vagueness, failing to define “unincorporated areas,” “north and east of the National Forest boundaries,” “National Forest boundaries," and “grass.”   If not void, Code excludes Property, since it was within XXX, an incorporated city on 5/24/17 (Citation date). The Citation is both inaccurate and ambiguous, featuring language either undefined by or excluded from Code.  Photos of alleged violation exclude measurements, failing to prove a critical element of Code.  Additionally, photos exclude address markers/GPS coordinates, failing to prove that photos depict Property on X/XX/XXXX (Citation date).

I, therefore, ask that Citation be dismissed.

Sincerely,

Mr. Snodgrass

 

Moderator Comment: No longer staying on topic or adding value to the community. — Jul. 21, 2017 @ 6:21pm
Member Summary
Most Recent Posts
veiled threat? I already said that I would NOT Target gov't agents, since they lack status/importance.

weseka (Jul. 21, 2017 @ 4:00p) |

I'm sure they'll just love hearing that last sentence.

kamalktk (Jul. 21, 2017 @ 5:16p) |

Schrodinger's D-bag is when someone says they were just joking / didnt mean it after they get called out on it.

kamalktk (Jul. 21, 2017 @ 5:20p) |

San Bernardino County admitted my property is within city limits.

No evidence shows that my city had adopted San Bernardino County Code (SBCC) before citation date.  Therefore, San Bernardino County Land Use Dept. had no legal authority over my property on citation date.

UPDATE (June)
I sent my appeal.  Strangely, San Bernardino County Land Services (SBCLS) outsources appeals to Newport Beach ( Orange County).

UPDATE (July)
SBCLS set a date for my hearing.  Additionally, SBCLS sent "justification" for my Citation.  In 2005, both San Bernardino County Fire (SBCF) & SBCLS entered into a "Memo of Understanding" (MOU).That document allegedly "transferred" SBCF's non-existent authority to enforce Code within "incorporated areas" to SBCLS.  (LOL!).

Of course, CA Gov. Code does NOT allow change of law by either MOU or county agencies.  Only a Board of Supervisors may alter county codes/ordinances.  So MOU lacks legal effect.

As of July 20th, I'm waiting for a "hearing officer" to rule on my case.   SBCLS will supposedly mail me notification of outcome, within a week or two.

If I were to lose, I believe CA law would give me 30 days to file a writ of mandate (an appeal to superior court).

UPDATE (07-21-17)
At 7:30 a.m., SBCLS served its fictional "abatement warrant." Two laborers (One Caucasian & One Hispanic) spent about 20 mins. "abating" my 1/2 acre yard. 

Now all Hesperians are safe from wildfires.

What's interesting (in this context) is language from the fictional "abatement warrant."

"LAND USE SERVICES IS HEREBY COMMANDED in the daytime, between the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. to abate and remove all fire hazards identified in the Notice and Order to Remove..."

I'm pretty sure 7:30 a.m. falls outside "the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m.," right?

Shockingly, SBCLS violated another law. Who saw that coming?

 
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rated:
It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

rated:
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

rated:
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

  Then keep it simple.  If the code says that you're only responsible for a fee in an "unincorporated area," and you are in fact not in an unincorporated area, then send them a map and a two-line explanation.

rated:
phisher4 said:   
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

  Then keep it simple.  If the code says that you're only responsible for a fee in an "unincorporated area," and you are in fact not in an unincorporated area, then send them a map and a two-line explanation.

  There might be some way for my county to weasel out of "unincorporated area." (I'm not a government-lawyer master man).  That's why I launched as many missiles as I could think of.

rated:
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

Are you certain your property is in fact within the incorporated part of the city?  If so, your appeal is simply that your property is part of XYZ city and thus is not "desert area".

Dont embarrass yourself trying to sell some distinction between weeds and grass.

rated:
weseka said:   
phisher4 said:   
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

  Then keep it simple.  If the code says that you're only responsible for a fee in an "unincorporated area," and you are in fact not in an unincorporated area, then send them a map and a two-line explanation.

  There might be some way for my county to weasel out of "unincorporated area." (I'm not a government-lawyer master man).  That's why I launched as many missiles as I could think of.

  How?  Are they going to say it's located somewhere other than where it is?  Seems like a rather easy defense to debunk.  Either it is part of an incorporated city, or it isnt.  Period.

Sounds more like you already know your property has a city mailing address but is in fact outside city limits....

rated:
Glitch99 said:   
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

Are you certain your property is in fact within the incorporated part of the city?  If so, your appeal is simply that your property is part of XYZ city and thus is not "desert area".

Dont embarrass yourself trying to sell some distinction between weeds and grass.

  "Main St." is about 1.5 miles away. So I'm going to assume that my property is within the incorporated part of the city.

Why not? County goon (CG) made the distinction on the citation.  If my county doesn't think weeds & grasses are different, why did CG use both words?

(This is exactly what he put next to the Code: FHA - Weeds & Grasses).

rated:
Glitch99 said:   
weseka said:   
phisher4 said:   
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

  Then keep it simple.  If the code says that you're only responsible for a fee in an "unincorporated area," and you are in fact not in an unincorporated area, then send them a map and a two-line explanation.

  There might be some way for my county to weasel out of "unincorporated area." (I'm not a government-lawyer master man).  That's why I launched as many missiles as I could think of.

  How?  Are they going to say it's located somewhere other than where it is?  Seems like a rather easy defense to debunk.  Either it is part of an incorporated city, or it isnt.  Period.

Sounds more like you already know your property has a city mailing address but is in fact outside city limits....

  As I said in another post, I live about 1.5 miles from Main St., in a heavily populated residential area.  There are ZERO indicators that I live outside city limits.

I just found a map of my parcel's track.  In the map's right corner, there's this : "City of XXX"  Would that be there for a property sitting outside of my city's limits?

For that reason, I don't see how my county has a leg to stand on.  But, just to be cautions, I trashed multiple parts of the Code/Citation.

 

rated:
weseka said:   The Code requires that “grass" exceed four inches.  
 

  What do you mean, four inches? What happens if its 12 or 24 inches? Most places I know would find you in violation if the grass is too TALL, not if it's short.

rated:
It's rare that code enforcement issues a ticket instead of a notice to correct.  Sure you can't just mow the grass, show a pic, and have the ticket dismissed?

rated:
This thread is useless without pictures!

rated:
Chyvan said:   It's rare that code enforcement issues a ticket instead of a notice to correct.  Sure you can't just mow the grass, show a pic, and have the ticket dismissed?
 got a notice to correct in April or May.  this notice is an actual ticket (with $100 fine).

rated:
Chyvan said:   It's rare that code enforcement issues a ticket instead of a notice to correct.  Sure you can't just mow the grass, show a pic, and have the ticket dismissed?
  This falls into the "mow your lawn, deadbeat" category

It looks like this is an actual ticket that followed up a warning based on OP's comment above this.

rated:
OP (weseka), perhaps you are unaware that in FWF, "pics" (i.e., digital photos) are almost mandatory.  It might help if we could see the "dazzling photos for Weeds & Grasses" you referred to in your initial post, even though these will not be the "pics" that FWF used to command during the golden age.  (Well, as Wolfe said, "you can't go home again".  So, I guess something is better than nothing.)    
 
I'm kind of smiling at this whole thing because I have a different scenario in a different locale.  My property is unquestionably unincorporated, so we don't share that issue.  But I happen to have National Forest land immediately adjacent to this property, so maybe we do share that.  A few years ago the landowner adjacent to me (in another direction) complained mightily that I had cut down the "magnificent canopy of trees" that had "roofed" the road that she thought separated our lands.  Her letter was very persuasive, poignant, poetic - and completely wrong.  Turns out the land across the street from her was National Forest land, and THEY had cut down the trees, on their side of the road! 
 
Part of the irony here is - I was bitched at because my adjacent landowner thought that I had cut down trees, on my land, that she felt I should not have (she was, of course, wrong -  the Feds had done this).  OP, you are being "bitched at", as it were, for NOT cutting or trimming vegetation!   
 
For all you West Coasters - I'll give you all the "flyover country" jokes.   Laugh, laugh away.  But, ya know?  I'll take our water.  Any day.
 
Water Rules!
 

rated:
weseka said:   
Glitch99 said:   
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

Are you certain your property is in fact within the incorporated part of the city?  If so, your appeal is simply that your property is part of XYZ city and thus is not "desert area".

Dont embarrass yourself trying to sell some distinction between weeds and grass.

  "Main St." is about 1.5 miles away. So I'm going to assume that my property is within the incorporated part of the city.

Why not? County goon (CG) made the distinction on the citation.  If my county doesn't think weeds & grasses are different, why did CG use both words?

(This is exactly what he put next to the Code: FHA - Weeds & Grasses).

So you want to appeal purely based on a guess that the code doesnt apply to you, instead of bothering to find out if it applies to you?  Yeah, that's a winning argument...

Just pay the fine and be pissed at yourself for not taking care of this back when you received the initial notice like you should've.

rated:
Glitch99 said:   
weseka said:   
Glitch99 said:   
weseka said:   
tennis8363 said:   It is BS until you or your neighbor's house burns down because you don't keep up your yard in the fire season.

Also, in the actual regulation it states there is a fee for appealing. What is the fee? Is it worth it?

  That's what insurance is for 

On a serious note, I don't have a problem with a legit citation.  My beef is with a county goon issuing me a citation for a code that applies to "unincorporated areas."   My property is in a city that incorporated sometime before 1990.

no fee for appeal.

Are you certain your property is in fact within the incorporated part of the city?  If so, your appeal is simply that your property is part of XYZ city and thus is not "desert area".

Dont embarrass yourself trying to sell some distinction between weeds and grass.

  "Main St." is about 1.5 miles away. So I'm going to assume that my property is within the incorporated part of the city.

Why not? County goon (CG) made the distinction on the citation.  If my county doesn't think weeds & grasses are different, why did CG use both words?

(This is exactly what he put next to the Code: FHA - Weeds & Grasses).

So you want to appeal purely based on a guess that the code doesnt apply to you, instead of bothering to find out if it applies to you?  Yeah, that's a winning argument...

Just pay the fine and be pissed at yourself for not taking care of this back when you received the initial notice like you should've.

  I can't find out right now, since there's nobody to answer phones in my city's offices.  My city's/county's websites are not ready for prime time (no online GIS). So I've got to wait until tomorrow for somebody to tell me what I already know.  Then I've got to get a lazy city employee to send me a letter/email, stating that my property falls within city limits.

Pay a fine for BS? lol. I think not.

 

rated:
fw9999 said:   OP (weseka), perhaps you are unaware that in FWF, "pics" (i.e., digital photos) are almost mandatory. 
  I can't...not interested in getting outed, after calling some people "county goons."

rated:
weseka said:   There might be some way for my county to weasel out of "unincorporated area." (I'm not a government-lawyer master man).  That's why I launched as many missiles as I could think of.This is never a good legal or dispute resolution strategy. It only serves to confuse and distract. Pick your strongest argument and go with it.

Or you could just cut your damn lawn. It also wouldn't hurt to get the chip off your shoulder about City Hall. They're just people doing their jobs like the rest of us.
  

rated:
Your 'appeal' sounds like your arguing semantics and wording.

I'd say mow your lawn if this is a residence we're talking about. What have you done in the past? I doubt this is the first time your grass has ever hit 4" tall.

Failing that, and if too large a property, consider a hungry farm animal.

Lastly, I think I'd have to side with the 'greater good' if there's a risk of fire danger. Fireworks are common in my country neighborhood so to head off any issue, I plan to stay home, water my grass and stay vigilant on July 4th. If I can prevent any accidental fires, then everyone benefits.

rated:
Like others, I wouldn't argue semantics with a government agency unless you are ready to drop enough money to take your argument all the way.  In this case, their definition of grass could win over yours.  You likely consider grass the nice looking green stuff that makes for a nice lawn.  However, bamboo is also grass.  What you consider a weed, may technically be grass.

There are few places that will dismiss a citation due to a simple inaccuracy of terminology.  Which means that you could appeal the citation the way you propose (launching as many missles as possible), and end up incriminatating yourself into a higher-priced citation.

Finally, you may live in a highly-populated area, but if it is administered as part of a township, parish, borough, county, or city, and does not have it's own local municipal administration, it could be an unincorporated area, and subject to the codes.

Do your research before you make a fool of yourself.

rated:
dcwilbur said:   
Or you could just cut your damn lawn. 

 
Logan71 said:   I'd say mow your lawn if this is a residence we're talking about. 
  
Did any of you read the OP?
weseka said:   The Code requires that “grass" exceed four inches in height.  
  
If he cuts the grass he is in violation.

rated:
atikovi said:   Did any of you read the OP?
weseka said:   The Code requires that “grass" exceed four inches in height.  
  
If he cuts the grass he is in violation.
He worded it poorly. He likely meant that the code requires that “grass" exceed four inches in height in order for a citation to be issued. Do you seriously think that a municipal authority is going to require tall grass in order to mitigate fire hazard?
  

rated:
dcwilbur said:   
atikovi said:   Did any of you read the OP?
weseka said:   The Code requires that “grass" exceed four inches in height.  
  
If he cuts the grass he is in violation.

He worded it poorly. He likely meant that the code requires that “grass" exceed four inches in height in order for a citation to be issued. Do you seriously think that a municipal authority is going to require tall grass in order to mitigate fire hazard?
  

  He got a citation for weeds and grasses, not a fire hazard. I would image that in a desert area they would encourage tall grass to reduce erosion and dust from being blown around, which is why short grass under 4 inches is a violation. 

rated:
atikovi said:     He got a citation for weeds and grasses, not a fire hazard. I would image that in a desert area they would encourage tall grass to reduce erosion and dust from being blown around, which is why short grass under 4 inches is a violation. 
Yeah, that's not how it works.

Cut down those weeds!
  

rated:
this HAS to be in Cal,,,couldn't be anywhere else...the home of micromanage every aspect of your life and YOU have to pay for it !!what a sweet gig...also home of the $10 deposit on a 14 oz can of Freon RF-134 which doesn't do jack to the air...(neither does r-12 or r-22..its a sham state and i hope they secede....quickly !!

rated:
County Goon: "Appeal denied. Where is our check?"

I don't think any of us can comment on whether or not you are in city limits. But I think all of us can confirm that if you are not in city limits, your appeal is going to crash and burn. Nothing you wrote even comes close to casting doubt on the citation or code.

rated:
trumpotron said:   this HAS to be in Cal,,,couldn't be anywhere else...the home of micromanage every aspect of your life and YOU have to pay for it !!what a sweet gig...also home of the $10 deposit on a 14 oz can of Freon RF-134 which doesn't do jack to the air...(neither does r-12 or r-22..its a sham state and i hope they secede....quickly !!
It's such a sham that it's economy is booming, on fire if you will

rated:
http://cms.sbcounty.gov/Portals/5/Fire%20Hazard%20Abatement/Regional_FHA_CodesDesert.pdf
SB county.

OP if you vote you know if you're in the city or not. If your house is in unincorporated area you won't vote for mayor, city council, etc.

rated:
Did you mow your lawn yet?

I get wanting to appeal if they cited you for being outside the city when you are actually inside the city. But there is probably the exact same law for people inside the city. What happens if they simply amend the charge to the correct one? The "judge" or whoever decides these things could easily allow it.

rated:
weseka said:   
Chyvan said:   It's rare that code enforcement issues a ticket instead of a notice to correct.  Sure you can't just mow the grass, show a pic, and have the ticket dismissed?
 got a notice to correct in April or May.  this notice is an actual ticket (with $100 fine).

ahhh. you have made 3 distinct errors.

1) you failed to keep your grass height under control. (okay, 4" is a bit onerous, but likely there for a reason during the dry season)
2) you ignored their notice. they gave you a chance to comply.
2) you are addressing this fine with pedantry instead of data. you don't even know if you're in city limits, which is variable #1.

you also characterized code enforcement as "county goons" when they are just doing their job to ensure public safety. your attitude about this sucks, and frankly, you appear to be rather lazy about your property upkeep AND research/knowledge.

 

rated:
weseka said:   
fw9999 said:   OP (weseka), perhaps you are unaware that in FWF, "pics" (i.e., digital photos) are almost mandatory. 
  I can't...not interested in getting outed, after calling some people "county goons."

  
If you appeal the citation with any of the crap you put in the OP, it would be pretty easy for "County Good (CG)" to find you.

rated:
I'm waiting for the inevitable thread in a few months, "Wanna help me fight Collection Calls from the BS Citation."

rated:
Do you pay city property taxes? If so, you're probably incorporated. If you don't, you're probably not.
The city won't be able to place a lien on your property if you're not within city limits, so if that's truly the case then just tell them to go take a hike and don't pay. But you better be sure.

If the photos fail to show measurements, that is an argument-but only if the grass is near 4 inches. If it's obviously a foot tall, I doubt that the argument will work. If there's any object in the photos except for grass, that object can be used for height measurements.
The hairsplitting of weeds vs grasses won't fly. Leave that out completely. It will only make people upset with your arguments.

Honestly, it sounds like you deserve the fine, regardless of legalistic hairsplitting. I would just pay it and try to be a better citizen. 

rated:
fw9999 said:   ...
For all you West Coasters - I'll give you all the "flyover country" jokes.   Laugh, laugh away.  But, ya know?  I'll take our water.  Any day.
 
Water Rules!

  

whats this about water?

I live in Oregon.  water falls out of the Sky here. 

I imagine you're talking about CA's recent drought.  AFAIK that is over.
 

rated:
I love Alternate accounts, after everyone disagreed with OP, he will vanish and make a new one.

rated:

City? (42.41kB)
Disclaimer
Hesperia, CA?  North of the forest and founded in 1988.  Cannot quite figure out the "weseka" part, was hoping to find the exact address.

rated:
duplicate post

rated:
The definition of what areas are and are not incorporated have nothing to do with your distance from Main St.

It is very possible to be in an unincorporated area, with a city mailing address, and from the outside have no idea because it looks just like the homes 1 block over. It's not like there are walls or markers at city limits (although sometimes they do have "Welcome to ___ City" signs, and if you notice one on your way FROM your house instead of TO your house, that may be a clue). You wouldn't notice in day-to-day living, but you are actually served by the County fire dept. instead of the City one, etc.

I'm sure there's a map somewhere to find out the exact city limits.

Also, you got a warning, and did nothing to deal with it. Nothing you say makes the city sound unreasonable or like "goons." And now are spending more time trying to do Internet legal research appeals vs. just cutting the grass or paying someone $25 to cut it for you.

Skipping 162 Messages...
rated:
Schrodinger's D-bag is when someone says they were just joking / didnt mean it after they get called out on it.



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