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my parents are 91 ..dad has congestive heart failure and mom is showing signs of parkinsons.they still live in thier own home which is not worth that much 75k and also have financial assets around 400k ..They have never done any finacial planning to protect assets should one or both go into a nursing home . Any suggestions on what they should do at this point .. I may suggest they see an elder law atty. 

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Okay at least there is some advantage. When my dad went into a nursing home for 3 weeks last fall he had some lunatic ro... (more)

decades (Jul. 24, 2017 @ 1:01a) |

Seems like "BoB" already figured out how to not get a roomie...

RedWolfe01 (Jul. 24, 2017 @ 4:25a) |

Well you see what's important to you to have insurance.  

forbin4040 (Jul. 24, 2017 @ 4:23p) |

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decades said:   my parents are 91 ..dad has congestive heart failure and mom is showing signs of parkinsons.they still live in thier own home which is not worth that much 75k and also have financial assets around 400k ..They have never done any finacial planning to protect assets should one or both go into a nursing home . Any suggestions on what they should do at this point .. I may suggest they see an elder law atty. 
  It certainly is good to have a consult with a professional. That said, there is usually a five year look back period. (At the risk of sounding insensitive) Given their age and health condition, it may be too late to do much in terms of asset protection.

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decades said:   my parents are 91 ..dad has congestive heart failure and mom is showing signs of parkinsons.they still live in thier own home which is not worth that much 75k and also have financial assets around 400k ..They have never done any finacial planning to protect assets should one or both go into a nursing home . Any suggestions on what they should do at this point .. I may suggest they see an elder law atty.
  No, if you want to protect their assets you MUST see an Elder Law Attorney.

Or you can try to do it yourself and possibly lose everything.

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Its worth a quick free consult with an Elder Law Attorney, but as was said before, dont plan on protecting much. Due to their age, and the 5 year look back period, there might not be many options.

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At their age and given their declining health, even if they would require advanced care, they stand little chance of running out of money.  I would look at their situation as being very fortunate in that they would be able to afford very comfortable in-home or institutional care.  You don't necessarily want to be in nursing homes where people with no money spend their final days.  Just another perspective.

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I'm not sure why previous poster thinks they might not run out of money? Nursing homes are around $5 to $6K per month, per person, so possibly $120K a year. That's less than 4 years.
Unfortunately the protecting assets ship has sailed, but I would consult an Elder Attorney anyway. Good luck.

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ledwards said:   I'm not sure why previous poster thinks they might not run out of money? Nursing homes are around $5 to $6K per month, per person, so possibly $120K a year. That's less than 4 years.
Unfortunately the protecting assets ship has sailed, but I would consult an Elder Attorney anyway. Good luck.


$5-6k/mo is relatively cheap.
  
Lots of places are 2x that cost or more.   And its not uncommon for nursing home stays to be multiple years.


 

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yea thats true my dad was in a nursing home a couple weeks last fall when he almost died from getting bronchitus and did not like it at all. The people with no money were wierd. I've taken them to look at many nice retirement homes but they never came close to moving in .They have a will and made me power of atty. I think it would be prudent to at least consult with an elder atty but whether they would agree to that is questionable..So far they want  no retirement home , no nursing home and no hiring someone to help them while living in thier own home .

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[q=ledwards;19925084 said:ous]I'm not sure why previous poster thinks they might not run out of money? Nursing homes are around $5 to $6K per month, per person, so possibly $120K a year. That's less than 4 years.
Unfortunately the protecting assets ship has sailed, but I would consult an Elder Attorney anyway. Good luck.
  
His point was that with that combination of  age and medical condition it is likely that if they get to the point of needing to go into care it is more likely to be Hospice and not long term.  Really if they have $400K in assets plus the home they won't be going into state care until/unless those are expended anyway.  The house itself...  it is less likely they will bother with it unless you are in a few specific states --and NOT if a surviving spouse is living in it.  I actually DON'T mind being a little insensitive in this case - the OP may be more about protecting inheritance than assets for the parents.  I have been through this, although my dad was pretty much poor and broke long before -- his house had collapsed catastrophically on its foundation and been condemned several years before and the added costs of renting had pretty much depleted any reserves he had.  His Church was helping him out in the end.  

I still take care of my stepmother financially and had to deal with the same sorts of planning to make sure that if she goes into managed care that I keep the house I paid for.  (I always planned to sell it after she passes and get a lot of my capital back and put it into my own retirement fund)  The only regret I had was not buying the house for them while he was alive - though I am not sure I could have gotten him to accept it.  I paid half of their last vehicle because I knew they would never let me pay all of it.  My stepmother is a lot less proud...

Really it is likely too late for OP due to lookback, but the reality is the only reason it matters is inheritance.  THEY are fine, and in rather good financial (if not medical) condition.   I imagine the worst case is the father passes and depletes the reserves and the mother's Parkinson's requires managed care.  In reality Medicare will take care of the straight medical care for the father and the remainder won't be that bad -- that isn't means tested.  However if one or both needs managed care that isn't covered by medicaid until means are depleted.     My dad had three extended hospital stays in his last year including the last one -- Medicare took care of most of it and the hospital did not pursue for more after he passed.  Ironically we provided the billing office with a death certificate and that was that.  He died the day before he was scheduled to be moved to the short term hospice on another floor of the hospital so nobody was particularly surprised.   
--

One thing you could do if you really are interested in keeping the house safe for them is buy it from them at low market (get the worst comps you can find and match them) and then add that money to their assets -- it will protect you from lookback because it was an asset swap.  Then give them a life estate, legally it will revert back to you and nobody can touch the house.  (obviously run it past a RE Lawyer in your state, but it should be fine as long as you pay somewhat close to market)  

 

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RedWolfe01 said:   ledwards said:   I'm not sure why previous poster thinks they might not run out of money? Nursing homes are around $5 to $6K per month, per person, so possibly $120K a year. That's less than 4 years.His point was that with that combination of  age and medical condition it is likely that if they get to the point of needing to go into care it is more likely to be Hospice and not long term....Exactly. A 91 year old man with congestive heart failure is not going to spend 4 years in a nursing home.


  

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Thanks for your analysis, it confirms my own thinking.For years I've been encouraging them to go into this really nice retirement home and relax and enjoy, intead of struggling to climb stairs get grocerys , cook etc..Even offered to pay for it if they run out of money . Us kids are well off and don't need the inheritance , have told them that repeatedly. Told them they are in the drivers seat finacially . They are extremely tight with money. I buy these really nice shirts for my dad and tell him i got them really cheap on eBay . Took him to buy pants for first time in twenty years and at first he refused because too expensive .Won't make home improvements to make things easier like a downstairs shower , stair lift etc. I may just let whatever happens happen , it could open a can of worms with them thinking I'm looking to get thier money .. None of us kids are living in the same town as them . I'm the closest fifty miles away and take them out to eat every sunday but don't particularly want to move back in to take care of them .

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Instead of a nursing home, have you considered assisted living? This is basically a home with multiple elderly people. You can get a shared room or private. There is staff to cook, clean, administer meds and take them to doctor's appointments. This should be far less expensive than a nursing home.

Also, you might consider hiring someone (or multiple people) to live with them and take care of their needs. You may be able to find a nurse who could be with them in their home. This might be less expensive than a nursing home.

You might check: aplaceformom.com. I'm sure there are other referral services.

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They can give away $14,000 ( or a share of their home or property worth that value ) to as many people as they want per year. How big is your family?? Can you collude to gift away the entire wealth of their estate and keep it intact?

Only other option is an irrevocable trust and it's probably too late to do that.

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dcwilbur said:    You don't necessarily want to be in nursing homes where people with no money spend their final days.  Just another perspective.
 

  I have visited several nursing homes over the years.  Have come across several residents who died there.  Resident care there can be inconsistent at best.  For some, when you check-in, you may not check-out (at least in the same condition).

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fedguy said:   
dcwilbur said:    You don't necessarily want to be in nursing homes where people with no money spend their final days.  Just another perspective.
  I have visited several nursing homes over the years.  Have come across several residents who died there.  Resident care there can be inconsistent at best.  For some, when you check-in, you may not check-out (at least in the same condition).

Unless you are in some kind of a rehabilitative arrangement, say after a broken hip or a major surgery, I think it's fair to say that a few more than "several" residents die in nursing homes.  Pretty much ALL nursing home patients die there.  That's kind of the point.

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samko said:   Instead of a nursing home, have you considered assisted living? This is basically a home with multiple elderly people. You can get a shared room or private. There is staff to cook, clean, administer meds and take them to doctor's appointments. This should be far less expensive than a nursing home.

Also, you might consider hiring someone (or multiple people) to live with them and take care of their needs. You may be able to find a nurse who could be with them in their home. This might be less expensive than a nursing home.

You might check: aplaceformom.com. I'm sure there are other referral services.

  

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samko said:   Instead of a nursing home, have you considered assisted living? This is basically a home with multiple elderly people. You can get a shared room or private. There is staff to cook, clean, administer meds and take them to doctor's appointments. This should be far less expensive than a nursing home.you 

Also, you might consider hiring someone (or multiple people) to live with them and take care of their needs. You may be able to find a nurse who could be with them in their home. This might be less expensive than a nursing home.

You might check: aplaceformom.com. I'm sure there are other referral services.
 

  yes thats what I'm talking about when i said retirement home ...This really good one i checked out provides what ever level care you need . drive you where ever you want to go ..total life of Riley ...don't have to lift  finger only about 5 or 6 k a month and not much more for the spouse to move in with you .This is much better than a nursing home environment thats depressing . 

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Paragon said:   They can give away $14,000 ( or a share of their home or property worth that value ) to as many people as they want per year. How big is your family?? Can you collude to gift away the entire wealth of their estate and keep it intact?

Only other option is an irrevocable trust and it's probably too late to do that.
 

  They don't give away money period. I would'nt have the nerve to suggest that ..my dad is kind of hair trigger ..we went to KFC and he reamed out the help for sweeping up near us while we were eating ..the worker left till we were gone..they have actually never been entirely rational people ...After we got back home from kfc my mother was asking who the fourth person was that was with us all day .. which was kind of spooky because it was just the three of us all day ...my dad is getting increasingly frustrated with her forgetfullness and yells a lot at her ....

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decades said:   they have actually never been entirely rational people

That explains why you post things like this https://www.fatwallet.com/forums/arcmessageview.php?catid=52&thr... and why your parents aren't interested in what you have to say about their finances.

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Chyvan said:   
decades said:   they have actually never been entirely rational people

That explains why you post things like this https://www.fatwallet.com/forums/arcmessageview.php?catid=52&threadid=1497091 and why your parents aren't interested in what you have to say about their finances.

  my dad had asked me to research bail ins ..he had heard this on the car radio somewhere ...sorry if i caused fear among the fatwalleters....MAGA!

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decades said:   Thanks for your analysis, it confirms my own thinking.For years I've been encouraging them to go into this really nice retirement home and relax and enjoy, intead of struggling to climb stairs get grocerys , cook etc..Even offered to pay for it if they run out of money . Us kids are well off and don't need the inheritance , have told them that repeatedly. Told them they are in the drivers seat finacially . They are extremely tight with money. I buy these really nice shirts for my dad and tell him i got them really cheap on eBay . Took him to buy pants for first time in twenty years and at first he refused because too expensive .Won't make home improvements to make things easier like a downstairs shower , stair lift etc. I may just let whatever happens happen , it could open a can of worms with them thinking I'm looking to get thier money .. None of us kids are living in the same town as them . I'm the closest fifty miles away and take them out to eat every sunday but don't particularly want to move back in to take care of them .
  
Yeah, there isn't much you can do for stubborn elders.  Even if you managed to talk them into moving to a smaller one level place it would probably make the mothers Parkinson's much worse.  I apologize if you felt I was rude earlier - just didn't see a way to say it otherwise.

After 91 years of doing it a particular way they won't change.  My dad was already like that in his 60s, which scares me to death since I am about to turn 50 and hope I do better.  

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RedWolfe01 said:   
decades said:   Thanks for your analysis, it confirms my own thinking.For years I've been encouraging them to go into this really nice retirement home and relax and enjoy, intead of struggling to climb stairs get grocerys , cook etc..Even offered to pay for it if they run out of money . Us kids are well off and don't need the inheritance , have told them that repeatedly. Told them they are in the drivers seat finacially . They are extremely tight with money. I buy these really nice shirts for my dad and tell him i got them really cheap on eBay . Took him to buy pants for first time in twenty years and at first he refused because too expensive .Won't make home improvements to make things easier like a downstairs shower , stair lift etc. I may just let whatever happens happen , it could open a can of worms with them thinking I'm looking to get thier money .. None of us kids are living in the same town as them . I'm the closest fifty miles away and take them out to eat every sunday but don't particularly want to move back in to take care of them .
  
Yeah, there isn't much you can do for stubborn elders.  Even if you managed to talk them into moving to a smaller one level place it would probably make the mothers Parkinson's much worse.  I apologize if you felt I was rude earlier - just didn't see a way to say it otherwise.

After 91 years of doing it a particular way they won't change.  My dad was already like that in his 60s, which scares me to death since I am about to turn 50 and hope I do better.  

Right ..noticed she was disoriented staying at my house last weekend ...its scary that my dad is still driving ..glad you posted.. that very well could make me look like I'm after thier money ..I just thought that protecting assets was something  everyone did. Think i will have my brother bring it up if he wants to ...he's an atty. Every thing they do is the way they have been doing it the last 70 years.. so true..But they need to change , when you can barely walk even with a cane you can't be lugging heavy grocerys from the car to the house on slippery sidewalks in winter . 

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It's never too late to protect assets despite the five year look back period! There are many loopholes and ways to "circumvent" it and they're all legal, although some fall in to a "gray" area. You must tell your parents in no uncertain terms that their entire life savings that they've scrimped and saved will be obliterated if they needed to go into a nursing facility instead of going to their rightful heirs, regardless if you don't "need" the money.

People in this age group are particularly difficult to deal with in this regard for a variety of reasons. A few years a go, my Grandmother refused until age 99 when my mother finally took over with POA  and she spent the last ~7 months of her life in a nursing home. I immediately located a very aggressive Elder Law attorney who was literally working at the "11th hour" and he used every "trick in the book". We still lost around ~3-4 months to the nursing home, ~$40k  but managed to save the bulk of her estate and had she lived longer, the estate was protected.

For people saying the look back period is cut and dry, it's not because 2-3 years prior to this my Grandmother wanted to give me $15k, but I had refused for reasons I won't go in to, but the lawyer said it was a bad mistake because he could have exempted it, and it essentially went to the nursing home.

Also, while it may vary depending on location, the "quality" of the nursing homes and the people in them are typically the same because in my experience my Grandmother was mixed in with people that were poor and also wealthy...

My parents, although younger, now have their entire estate protected but that only occurred 5 years a go and it was a battle, but they finally realized the value and they are now on board 100%. I have run through every possible scenario and while 2/3 of their estate is in an irrevocable trust,  the other 1/3 is not, but needless to say the nursing home will never see a dime of it because I know exactly what to do to at the first inkling of any issues, combined with an ongoing wealth transfer arrangement.

On another note, you indicated some disturbing things, e.g. memory, etc. which could be as simple as making certain they are eating properly, staying hydrated, etc. Often times people attribute such solely to aging, but really can be a simple deficiency of vitamins, minerals, etc. because even if they eat fairly well, elderly don't absorb nutrients as well, especially given the way many foods are made and deficiency can mimic other conditions. Many medications can also create nefarious side effects...

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LOOPHOLE said:   It's never too late to protect assets despite the five year look back period! There are many loopholes and ways to "circumvent" it and they're all legal, although some fall in to a "gray" area. You must tell your parents in no uncertain terms that their entire life savings that they've scrimped and saved will be obliterated if they needed to go into a nursing facility instead of going to their rightful heirs, regardless if you don't "need" the money.

People in this age group are particularly difficult to deal with in this regard for a variety of reasons. A few years a go, my Grandmother refused until age 99 when my mother finally took over with POA  and she spent the last ~7 months of her life in a nursing home. I immediately located a very aggressive Elder Law attorney who was literally working at the "11th hour" and he used every "trick in the book". We still lost around ~3-4 months to the nursing home, ~$40k  but managed to save the bulk of her estate and had she lived longer, the estate was protected.

For people saying the look back period is cut and dry, it's not because 2-3 years prior to this my Grandmother wanted to give me $15k, but I had refused for reasons I won't go in to, but the lawyer said it was a bad mistake because he could have exempted it, and it essentially went to the nursing home.

Also, while it may vary depending on location, the "quality" of the nursing homes and the people in them are typically the same because in my experience my Grandmother was mixed in with people that were poor and also wealthy...

My parents, although younger, now have their entire estate protected but that only occurred 5 years a go and it was a battle, but they finally realized the value and they are now on board 100%. I have run through every possible scenario and while 2/3 of their estate is in an irrevocable trust,  the other 1/3 is not, but needless to say the nursing home will never see a dime of it because I know exactly what to do to at the first inkling of any issues, combined with an ongoing wealth transfer arrangement.

On another note, you indicated some disturbing things, e.g. memory, etc. which could be as simple as making certain they are eating properly, staying hydrated, etc. Often times people attribute such solely to aging, but really can be a simple deficiency of vitamins, minerals, etc. because even if they eat fairly well, elderly don't absorb nutrients as well, especially given the way many foods are made and deficiency can mimic other conditions. Many medications can also create nefarious side effects...
  

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You are correct its never to late to protect assets . A good elder law atty can accomplish that. Moral question : The nursing home provides a much needed service Why should you not pay for it ? You have assets and can afford this service , why would you make others pay for it ?

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decades said:   You are correct its never to late to protect assets . A good elder law atty can accomplish that. Moral question : The nursing home provides a much needed service Why should you not pay for it ? You have assets and can afford this service , why would you make others pay for it ?

Quite simply because it's all baked in to the equation. Yes, nursing homes provide a needed service, but they are beholden to the government via laws, regulations, etc.that dictate the absurd costs and I don't want to transfer any more money to the government than possible and due to these factors and others I have absolutely no qualms using every available loophole to our families advantage. As it is they take all income except for a minuscule amount, whether that be pensions, social security, etc. The entire system is just a game, you either play it to your advantage or not. The real moral questions have nothing to do with money...  

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decades said:   You are correct its never to late to protect assets . A good elder law atty can accomplish that. Moral question : The nursing home provides a much needed service Why should you not pay for it ? You have assets and can afford this service , why would you make others pay for it ?
  Because you are already paying for it for others.  The other question is, why pay for something in full when you are (or can legally make yourself) eligible for a subsidy/alternate funding source?  I'm all for paying your own way, but also for not paying more than necessary.

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fwuser12 said:   
decades said:   my parents are 91 ..dad has congestive heart failure and mom is showing signs of parkinsons.they still live in thier own home which is not worth that much 75k and also have financial assets around 400k ..They have never done any finacial planning to protect assets should one or both go into a nursing home . Any suggestions on what they should do at this point .. I may suggest they see an elder law atty. 
  It certainly is good to have a consult with a professional. That said, there is usually a five year look back period. (At the risk of sounding insensitive) Given their age and health condition, it may be too late to do much in terms of asset protection.

  Answer this - what's the fear of a look back period?  If father gives son $100k, then 3 years later needs care, the 5-year look back period would find that $100k and declare the first $100k expenses to be not eligible for coverage.  So the son can kick in $100k, since Dad no longer has any assets to cover it on his own.  Doesn't pissing around worrying about the look back period only delay that 5-year clock from starting?  As long as the kids understand they'll have to (and can be trusted to) potentially take care of a parent during those initial 5 years, what's the disadvantage in just transferring assets as soon as they start to grasp there could be a problem?  What am I missing?

I saw this within my own family, talking about how grandpa couldn't just give the kids lump sum gifts because his health was declining and such gifts would be subject to that look back period.  All I could wonder is why no one wanted to get that clock started asap - because grandpa's cash was going to be counted for the next 5 years regardless, but at least whatever remained in year 6 would be protected if he divested himself of it right away.

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Glitch99 said:   the son can kick in $100k,

I think this is the problem. What happens when the money's spent and they can't meet that requirement?
  

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Chyvan said:   
Glitch99 said:   the son can kick in $100k,

I think this is the problem. What happens when the money's spent and they can't meet that requirement?
  

  
Well,
Glitch99 said:   
As long as the kids understand they'll have to (and can be trusted to) potentially take care of a parent during those initial 5 years,

It'd obviously be ill-advised if the kids are broke and irresponsible. Otherwise, they just know that money might get pulled back, and sit on it until after that risk has passed.

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LOOPHOLE said:   
decades said:   You are correct its never to late to protect assets . A good elder law atty can accomplish that. Moral question : The nursing home provides a much needed service Why should you not pay for it ? You have assets and can afford this service , why would you make others pay for it ?

Quite simply because it's all baked in to the equation. Yes, nursing homes provide a needed service, but they are beholden to the government via laws, regulations, etc.that dictate the absurd costs and I don't want to transfer any more money to the government than possible and due to these factors and others I have absolutely no qualms using every available loophole to our families advantage. As it is they take all income except for a minuscule amount, whether that be pensions, social security, etc. The entire system is just a game, you either play it to your advantage or not. The real moral questions have nothing to do with money...  
 

  Interesting ....basicly these are lawful strategys that transfer wealth to enable one to qualify for medicade. So our government has set up this medicade system (which is going broke of course) to make it optional to pay for nursing home expenses even for high net worth individuals...unreal....my parents never liked the term medicade ..that was for welfare people ..they were on medicare which they paid for ....

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LOOPHOLE said:   
decades said:   You are correct its never to late to protect assets . A good elder law atty can accomplish that. Moral question : The nursing home provides a much needed service Why should you not pay for it ? You have assets and can afford this service , why would you make others pay for it ?

Quite simply because it's all baked in to the equation. Yes, nursing homes provide a needed service, but they are beholden to the government via laws, regulations, etc.that dictate the absurd costs and I don't want to transfer any more money to the government than possible and due to these factors and others I have absolutely no qualms using every available loophole to our families advantage. As it is they take all income except for a minuscule amount, whether that be pensions, social security, etc. The entire system is just a game, you either play it to your advantage or not. The real moral questions have nothing to do with money...  

  Interesting ....basicly these are lawful strategys that transfer wealth to enable one to qualify for medicade. So our government has set up this medicade system (which is going broke of course) to make it optional to pay for nursing home expenses even for high net worth individuals...unreal....my parents never liked the term medicade ..that was for welfare people ..they were on medicare which they paid for ....

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Glitch99 said:   
decades said:   You are correct its never to late to protect assets . A good elder law atty can accomplish that. Moral question : The nursing home provides a much needed service Why should you not pay for it ? You have assets and can afford this service , why would you make others pay for it ?
  Because you are already paying for it for others.  The other question is, why pay for something in full when you are (or can legally make yourself) eligible for a subsidy/alternate funding source?  I'm all for paying your own way, but also for not paying more than necessary.

  true....now realize we are all paying for everyone elses nursing home stays ...I guess half the population pays for the other half in general ..... think maybe my parents will be too proud to accept medicade as they feel a stigma is attached to that . I kind of see the bigger picture now ...only a fool would NOT contact an elder atty and i will be contacting one soon for my own estate planning purposes 

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Glitch99 said:   
fwuser12 said:   
decades said:   my parents are 91 ..dad has congestive heart failure and mom is showing signs of parkinsons.they still live in thier own home which is not worth that much 75k and also have financial assets around 400k ..They have never done any finacial planning to protect assets should one or both go into a nursing home . Any suggestions on what they should do at this point .. I may suggest they see an elder law atty. 
  It certainly is good to have a consult with a professional. That said, there is usually a five year look back period. (At the risk of sounding insensitive) Given their age and health condition, it may be too late to do much in terms of asset protection.

  Answer this - what's the fear of a look back period?  If father gives son $100k, then 3 years later needs care, the 5-year look back period would find that $100k and declare the first $100k expenses to be not eligible for coverage.  So the son can kick in $100k, since Dad no longer has any assets to cover it on his own.  Doesn't pissing around worrying about the look back period only delay that 5-year clock from starting?  As long as the kids understand they'll have to (and can be trusted to) potentially take care of a parent during those initial 5 years, what's the disadvantage in just transferring assets as soon as they start to grasp there could be a problem?  What am I missing?

I saw this within my own family, talking about how grandpa couldn't just give the kids lump sum gifts because his health was declining and such gifts would be subject to that look back period.  All I could wonder is why no one wanted to get that clock started asap - because grandpa's cash was going to be counted for the next 5 years regardless, but at least whatever remained in year 6 would be protected if he divested himself of it right away.

  
Honestly if the kids are not worried about inheritance then none of it is really an issue.  The lookback period only applies to assets they are interested in seizing to pay for care.  They specifically cannot attach a house that still has a living spouse in it.  If there is money, sure they can use that to pay for the care -- once it runs out Medicaid takes over.  Between Medicare and Medicaid pretty much every elder in the US has the same general level of care and access to nursing.  Whether they had assets or not doesn't really matter except to the heirs.  Their financial nest egg is taking care of them UNTIL the point that they cannot live on their own.  

Elders with NO assets like that manage -- so I am fairly sure your parents will too.  Just having a paid off house puts them WAY ahead of many -- their generation paid their own way so telling him you want to protect his money so the government has to pay his way may not go well.  Most Elders can deal with  Medicare/Medicaid because they SAW the premiums come out of their payroll all their life.  That is how you manage to run a socialist system like medicare and Social Security in a conservative/capitalist society -- you convince everyone they paid for it.   It makes people ignore the word "Social" that is right there in the name.  That is how people in the US divide social services in their mind- "entitlements" that the recipient "paid" for and "welfare" that they did not.

McCarthyism did an excellent job conflating and combining "Socialism" and "Communism" in people's minds to the point its impossible to call anything "Socialism" without someone bringing in "Communism."  (the principle difference is the ownership of resources and industry, not social support systems -- nobody thinks Europe is communist but they quickly bring it up HERE when similar systems are on the table)

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Glitch99 said:   
fwuser12 said:   
decades said:   my parents are 91 ..dad has congestive heart failure and mom is showing signs of parkinsons.they still live in thier own home which is not worth that much 75k and also have financial assets around 400k ..They have never done any finacial planning to protect assets should one or both go into a nursing home . Any suggestions on what they should do at this point .. I may suggest they see an elder law atty. 
  It certainly is good to have a consult with a professional. That said, there is usually a five year look back period. (At the risk of sounding insensitive) Given their age and health condition, it may be too late to do much in terms of asset protection.

  Answer this - what's the fear of a look back period?  If father gives son $100k, then 3 years later needs care, the 5-year look back period would find that $100k and declare the first $100k expenses to be not eligible for coverage.  So the son can kick in $100k, since Dad no longer has any assets to cover it on his own.  Doesn't pissing around worrying about the look back period only delay that 5-year clock from starting?  As long as the kids understand they'll have to (and can be trusted to) potentially take care of a parent during those initial 5 years, what's the disadvantage in just transferring assets as soon as they start to grasp there could be a problem?  What am I missing?

I saw this within my own family, talking about how grandpa couldn't just give the kids lump sum gifts because his health was declining and such gifts would be subject to that look back period.  All I could wonder is why no one wanted to get that clock started asap - because grandpa's cash was going to be counted for the next 5 years regardless, but at least whatever remained in year 6 would be protected if he divested himself of it right away.

  I dont disagree with you in terms of what can be done now (as long as everyone understands and dont spend away the "gifts" from this elderly couple).
Whether that will make a practical difference in OP's situation is a different matter.

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Another example of hiding assets to ensure that government teat (nursing home paid by Medicaid) is not denied.  Hope the family enjoys the new jet skis, etc.
P.S.  Why stop at assets? You should shift/manipulate income to qualify for food stamps, too.

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With the current setup why would anyone purchase nursing home insurance? I didn't. Figured would have to use investment income to pay the nursing home costs

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decades said:   With the current setup why would anyone purchase nursing home insurance? I didn't. Figured would have to use investment income to pay the nursing home costs
  It pays for a private room instead of semi private.  Important for some people.

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Paragon said:   Only other option is an irrevocable trust and it's probably too late to do that.
That was the only remaining transfer not subject to the five-year lookback last time I had to deal with this issue. Don't know for sure if they plugged that loophole yet or not.
 

Skipping 4 Messages...
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decades said:   
forbin4040 said:   
decades said:   With the current setup why would anyone purchase nursing home insurance? I didn't. Figured would have to use investment income to pay the nursing home costs
  It pays for a private room instead of semi private.  Important for some people.

  Okay at least there is some advantage. When my dad went into a nursing home for 3 weeks last fall he had some lunatic roomate Bob. We're there with my Mom and sister visiting my dad . Bob wheels himself into the room and says  .....I haven't been sexually active in seven years due to a urinary tract problem .... we all just looked at each other .. ..then he wheels himself into the bathroom near dads bed....does'nt shut the door ...takes a dump ...stinks up the entire room ....left some of it on the floor...seemed to do that every time my dad had quests ...after a few days they agreed to put Bob in another room 

  Well you see what's important to you to have insurance.  

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