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What could be behind this CL open title car sale?

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Getting a little tired of legitimate car dealers saying one thing orally to get the deal, then changing the deal (i.e. welching) when it comes time to put it in writing on their bill of sale (by eliminating the concessions they made to get the deal).  So, I decided to look at a Craig's List car instead!  (this should be fun, read on)

This particular car was in excellent condition, but the seller's ethics are questionable!  Car is listed on CL as a private party sale in Brooklyn, NY, but when I meet the man, he claims to be a dealer from Delaware though the car has a New Jersey dealer's plate temporarily attached.  Furthermore, he's pushing to get the car sold immediately, and claims some ability to get 3-day temporary plates from Arizona to allow me to take it.  The title to the vehicle is from New Jersey issued to a New Jersey dealership as in their inventory, but on the back it has been transferred to a LLC.  Calling the dealership on the front of the title, they acknowledge the car is no longer theirs, but also exclaim that the dealer plate he is using is not theirs.  The seller calls this an "open title" (though it's not really open), and says he'd be using a dealer's reassignment form to make the transfer (New Jersey titles have no dealer reassignment area on them).  I'd be titling and registering in New York.

Ok, WTF, I'm not buying this car with so many legal irregularities.  I'm not dumb, or am I?  No way to know who this guy really is, and what he's actually doing, and why.  Still, the situation raises some interesting questions about what's acceptable to title and register a used vehicle.  Here are my lingering questions:

1) If the vehicle is owned by a business, how much due diligence is appropriate to determine if the person selling is authorized by the business to make the transfer?
2) If it's an out-of-state title which doesn't provide for dealer reassignment on the back of the title, can an out-of-state dealer nevertheless skip title and give a title reassignment form following the practice specific to the state they're located in?
3) Why on earth would a dealership loan their dealer plates to a buyer or another dealer when selling their car?  How and why was this guy using NJ dealer plates?
4) What legal requirements could this seller be trying to evade, if in fact he does have full and clear right to sell the vehicle?  Sales tax?  Dealer registration?  Money laundering?  Something else?

Final note, it's not clear to me exactly how this transaction would have concluded had I agreed to buy the car and paid the seller and sale was fundamentally legit.  With bill of sale, title, reassignment form, temporary plates (printed immediately somehow), driver license, insurance cards, and payment by some kind of bank transfer, would I really be able to obtain from NY my own title and registration on this vehicle with just that documentation? 

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ZenNUTS (Aug. 28, 2017 @ 4:50p) |

Only if that OP moved to NY in 10 days from CA.

forbin4040 (Aug. 28, 2017 @ 5:33p) |

The Welsh get no respect...   nor do the Welch's juice people...

RidicuRuss (Aug. 29, 2017 @ 5:32p) |

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tl;dr OP didn't like how shady car salesmen are so OP decided to try craigslist

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cparke said:   With bill of sale, title, reassignment form, temporary plates (printed immediately somehow), driver license, insurance cards, and payment by some kind of bank transfer, would I really be able to obtain from NY my own title and registration on this vehicle with just that documentation? 
Yes.  

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https://servicearizona.com/applicationFAQ

3day permit use outside of Arizona is illegal. Curbstoners are the shadiest of car salesmen. Be careful and research the transaction issues yourself.

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Yeah, I think the person selling avoided re-registering the car if I read all the details correctly.

I think this is against most dealer licenses, but it might not be if it is dealer to dealer or some other non-end user sale.

I can't imagine most car deals in such situation being in such excellent condition. Maybe a few extra owners, some smaller damage, fleet use or other situations that would ding the car's salability.

Rasheed

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Private sellers can be just as shady, especially since they aren't subject to as many rules as licenced dealers. If a private seller rolls back the odometer by 100,000 miles and you find out months later, what are you going to do if you can even find him?
cparke said:   Ok, WTF, I'm not buying this car with so many legal irregularities.  I'm not dumb, or am I?  No way to know who this guy really is, and what he's actually doing, and why.  
Are looking to buy a car or get into a relationship? Who cares what the guy is about as long as the car checks out good and the paperwork is legit. Guy probably pays the dealer a few hundred a month and the dealer lets him buy at auctions and sell under the dealers license and gives him a dealer tag. Chances are you will get a better deal since he has little overhead. If you have any concern about the paperwork, ask him to go with you to the DMV to do the title transfer and pay him then.

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RUN !! Do NOT walk.
Too many oddities.

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JW10 said:   RUN !! Do NOT walk.
Too many oddities.

Yeah, go overpay at Carmax instead.  Leave the good deals for the rest of us.  

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Are looking to buy a car or get into a relationship? Who cares what the guy is about as long as the car checks out good and the paperwork is legit. Guy probably pays the dealer a few hundred a month and the dealer lets him buy at auctions and sell under the dealers license and gives him a dealer tag. Chances are you will get a better deal since he has little overhead. If you have any concern about the paperwork, ask him to go with you to the DMV to do the title transfer and pay him then.
It would be fine with me if it was sold under the dealer's license. However, that's not the case! He strongly insisted that the vehicle was being sold by him for his company, not by the dealer whose NJ dealer's plate he was using, which he would not identify. With the current title issued to a dealership and already signed over to a business, no idea if its his company that actually owns the car or not.

Consider that maybe he was just the guy or salesman sent to pick up the vehicle and title from the NJ dealership and transport it to a purchasing Delaware dealership, but instead he's fraudulently selling it on the street.  Eventually, the vehicle will become a stolen vehicle. Not something I'd want to be involved with, particularly because in the end I'm probably the one who has really been robbed!

That's why I care who the guy is, not just that the car and its paperwork are good (which I'm not even sure about).

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This looks like a thread I want to subscribe to.

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My first thought was stolen vehicle.

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Transfer title at DMV. Have a mechanic not recommended by him check the car out. Make sure the mechanic checks to make sure the vin matches on all the parts. Pay by check.

Enjoy your new or new to you car.

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No way this guy takes a check. Buy from someone else.

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Unless he'll meet you at the DMV and go with you to the window to title the car under your name, I wouldn't trust this transaction. If he whines about waiting in line at the DMV, tell him it's his fault for making it all kinds of convoluted and you're just trying to cover your own ass in case someone tries to say that the title transfers up to this point weren't legit. If they were and he really wants the sale, he'll do it. He probably won't because he knows there's someone else after you that will take the risk and give him cash and accept the title the way it is now. The car probably isn't stolen in the traditional sense, but there's a chance you might get caught up in some other sort of scam where you are out a bunch of money and a car if you aren't careful.

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meade18 said:   Unless he'll meet you at the DMV and go with you to the window to title the car under your name, I wouldn't trust this transaction.
That would indeed help clear up whether the documentation to be provided (in particular, the separate dealer reassignment form and/or corporate authority to convey the title) is acceptable to NYDMV before paying the seller. Not something it sounds like he wanted to get involved, doing since he considers himself a "dealer". It is really troubling to me how the law in most states allows dealers to legally skip title, since that enables scammers to exploit the loophole.

However, even if that happened and the registration was issued, I don't think I'd necessarily be out of the woods. NYDMV does not issue title certificates immediately at the office, rather they come in the mail weeks later after the title bureau is satisfied (they also do this to allow time for new lien recordings sent in separately to be received). And even if that weren't the case or they otherwise issued the new title, does that mean I'd be totally clear? I worry that if it later turns out he had the car on consignment and didn't have the authorization or pay the owner, or it gets reported stolen by the rightful owner in response to some dispute like that, could they invalidate the new title and repossess?

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cparke said:   meade18 said:   Unless he'll meet you at the DMV and go with you to the window to title the car under your name, I wouldn't trust this transaction.
That would indeed help clear up whether the documentation to be provided (in particular, the separate dealer reassignment form and/or corporate authority to convey the title) is acceptable to NYDMV before paying the seller. Not something it sounds like he wanted to get involved, doing since he considers himself a "dealer". It is really troubling to me how the law in most states allows dealers to legally skip title, since that enables scammers to exploit the loophole.

However, even if that happened and the registration was issued, I don't think I'd necessarily be out of the woods. NYDMV does not issue title certificates immediately at the office, rather they come in the mail weeks later after the title bureau is satisfied (they also do this to allow time for new lien recordings sent in separately to be received). And even if that weren't the case or they otherwise issued the new title, does that mean I'd be totally clear? I worry that if it later turns out he had the car on consignment and didn't have the authorization or pay the owner, or it gets reported stolen by the rightful owner in response to some dispute like that, could they invalidate the new title and repossess?


Fundamentally, if this is some sort of scam, you will lose the car, and it'll be on you to recover from this guy.

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I thought you went to Craigslist to stop working with scammy dealers.

So why are you working with a scammy dealer again?

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scrouds said:   So why are you working with a scammy dealer again?
I walked out on making a deal with him. Here we're discussing how it was scammy, or if there was any way to get through it safely.

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cparke said:   scrouds said:   So why are you working with a scammy dealer again?
I walked out on making a deal with him. Here we're discussing how it was scammy, or if there was any way to get through it safely.

Good on you then.

When looking through craplist, I try to ferret out the dealers and the wannabe dealers.

It's funny when 5 cars for sale are all parked in the same driveway for sale.

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scrouds said:   
It's funny when 5 cars for sale are all parked in the same driveway for sale.

  I'd call that convenient. 

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Did the seller look like Eric Trump?

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Although curbstoning is looked down upon I have some friends I've known flip cars with the title not in their name. There was never an issue on the buyers end getting the car titled. This of course assumes you aren't in a state like NC that needs a notory public stamp to transfer the title.

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mastroadam said:   Although curbstoning is looked down upon I have some friends I've known flip cars with the title not in their name. There was never an issue on the buyers end getting the car titled. This of course assumes you aren't in a state like NC that needs a notory public stamp to transfer the title.

There's nothing wrong with curbstoners who know what they are doing.

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cparke said:   
meade18 said:   Unless he'll meet you at the DMV and go with you to the window to title the car under your name, I wouldn't trust this transaction.
That would indeed help clear up whether the documentation to be provided (in particular, the separate dealer reassignment form and/or corporate authority to convey the title) is acceptable to NYDMV before paying the seller. Not something it sounds like he wanted to get involved, doing since he considers himself a "dealer". It is really troubling to me how the law in most states allows dealers to legally skip title, since that enables scammers to exploit the loophole.

However, even if that happened and the registration was issued, I don't think I'd necessarily be out of the woods. NYDMV does not issue title certificates immediately at the office, rather they come in the mail weeks later after the title bureau is satisfied (they also do this to allow time for new lien recordings sent in separately to be received). And even if that weren't the case or they otherwise issued the new title, does that mean I'd be totally clear? I worry that if it later turns out he had the car on consignment and didn't have the authorization or pay the owner, or it gets reported stolen by the rightful owner in response to some dispute like that, could they invalidate the new title and repossess?

  
In VA, you can walk out of the DMV with a new title. I didn't know that wasn't the case in NY. Based on that, I don't know how you could possibly guarantee getting a clean title. The thing I would worry most about is someone along the chain of custody of this car/title getting a title loan and that showing up during the 2 week delay and you having to figure out how to clear that up.

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meade18 said:   
In VA, you can walk out of the DMV with a new title.

  One of the reasons I own property in VA.

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It would be nice if people could stop redding the OP for asking an honest question, however shady it might seem to the rest of it. They came here with an honest question and these threads can be valuable for people looking later to see if the situations have happened before, but are less likely to read a thread if it has a giant red next to it.

Back to the question at hand, OP just run. There is nothing but shadyness here. If you are just saving a little, then it is not worth the risk. If you are saving a ton, then it is probably too good to be true.

rated:
cparke said:   Getting a little tired of legitimate car dealers saying one thing orally to get the deal, then changing the deal (i.e. welching) when it comes time to put it in writing on their bill of sale (by eliminating the concessions they made to get the deal).  So, I decided to look at a Craig's List car instead!  (this should be fun, read on)

This particular car was in excellent condition, but the seller's ethics are questionable!  Car is listed on CL as a private party sale in Brooklyn, NY, but when I meet the man, he claims to be a dealer from Delaware though the car has a New Jersey dealer's plate temporarily attached.  Furthermore, he's pushing to get the car sold immediately, and claims some ability to get 3-day temporary plates from Arizona to allow me to take it.  The title to the vehicle is from New Jersey issued to a New Jersey dealership as in their inventory, but on the back it has been transferred to a LLC.  Calling the dealership on the front of the title, they acknowledge the car is no longer theirs, but also exclaim that the dealer plate he is using is not theirs.  The seller calls this an "open title" (though it's not really open), and says he'd be using a dealer's reassignment form to make the transfer (New Jersey titles have no dealer reassignment area on them).  I'd be titling and registering in New York.

Ok, WTF, I'm not buying this car with so many legal irregularities.  I'm not dumb, or am I?  No way to know who this guy really is, and what he's actually doing, and why.  Still, the situation raises some interesting questions about what's acceptable to title and register a used vehicle.  Here are my lingering questions:

1) If the vehicle is owned by a business, how much due diligence is appropriate to determine if the person selling is authorized by the business to make the transfer?
2) If it's an out-of-state title which doesn't provide for dealer reassignment on the back of the title, can an out-of-state dealer nevertheless skip title and give a title reassignment form following the practice specific to the state they're located in?
3) Why on earth would a dealership loan their dealer plates to a buyer or another dealer when selling their car?  How and why was this guy using NJ dealer plates?
4) What legal requirements could this seller be trying to evade, if in fact he does have full and clear right to sell the vehicle?  Sales tax?  Dealer registration?  Money laundering?  Something else?

Final note, it's not clear to me exactly how this transaction would have concluded had I agreed to buy the car and paid the seller and sale was fundamentally legit.  With bill of sale, title, reassignment form, temporary plates (printed immediately somehow), driver license, insurance cards, and payment by some kind of bank transfer, would I really be able to obtain from NY my own title and registration on this vehicle with just that documentation? 

  
If it's shady everywhere you go...

rated:

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ZenNUTS said:   Same OP?

https://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1582361

  Only if that OP moved to NY in 10 days from CA.

rated:
cparke said:   ...then changing the deal (i.e. welching) ...
 

The Welsh get no respect...   nor do the Welch's juice people... 

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