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rated:
moonbeam said:   
larrymoencurly said:   
MilleniumBuc said:   Don't forget corporate welfare. I don't understand how states or cities subsidize company relocations for companies relocating within the US. Do it for foreign companies to combover here. We should not be wasting money between ourselves. Same with sport stadiums. In the capitalistic world, teams should build what is profitable for them. If not, they are welcome to move wherever it works with their own money.
Companies get subsidies even in states where the constitution prohibits subsidizing companies.  Governments get around this by classifying the welfare as some kind of public project, because we know that football stadiums aren't mostly for football.  So I'm not optimistic about a US Constitutional amendment helping.

The problem with revolutions is that they attract more crazies and opportunists than rational idealists.  The revolution in France was a lot more typical than the American revolution.

 

  IME this is also true for protest marches, sit ins, et al. *remembers idiots camped out in Zuccotti Park*

  Only OWS could make tourists seem not so bad to MB!

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KayK said:   
ganda said:   
scrouds said:   I appreciate your attempt to create a false dichotomy, but people will do dirty jobs and $15/hr is still ridiculous.
  
No, apparently people won't do dirty jobs, see what happened in Georgia when they drove away the dirty job doing illegals 

They had to get prisoners to work in the fields, North Korea style. 

Either you need to make the dirty jobs pay well enough (expensive strawberries), or you need people desperate enough they'll do the job for little money (illegal Guatemalans).

Even legal immigrants will do work for little money.
My parents earned a combined $15/hour back in late 1999/early 2000 to support us.
It's not about people desperate enough to work for low money. It's about businesses shrewd enough not to pay a living wage to it's workers.

You don't have to be an immigrant to work for almost nothing. A lot of people born in the US do the same because they don't have the money or intelligence for higher education or just because they can't find anything else. In some areas high paying jobs are rare. 

Follow up on KK's post on minimum wage in India: minimum wages around the world. Unfortunately you have to convert from the local currency to US dollars but it's still interesting. 

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moonbeam said:   [You don't have to be an immigrant to work for almost nothing. A lot of people born in the US do the same because they don't have the money or intelligence for higher education or just because they can't find anything else. In some areas high paying jobs are rare.In this case, shouldn't the individual move to somewhere where there are opportunities?
they can find opportunities online.. lots of public libraries have internet for free..
they can learn for free online.. there is lots of free education available..
I think the minimum wage right now is crap.. and I think that corporations only care for their numbers and stats rather than individuals.. they want to get the most money they can while paying employees as least as possible.
At the same time, I feel individuals do not take advantage of all free opportunities they get to improve their lives.. and take full advantage of all "free" money that they can get (food stamps, etc)
I have personally seen both sides (Uncle being a small business owner who wants to save as much as possible legally.. and sister's in-laws on food stamps.. legally.. even though sister and her husband earn more than 350k+)

What does a person born in US have to do with anything? A US citizen born in US has the same exact rights as a US citizen born somewhere else.. only exception is running for president. A legal US immigrant has same rights as a US citizen (born in US or not) other than some specific government related jobs.

rated:
The minimum wage needs to be fixed. It's currently 7 years old, not indexed to inflation. I would do 3 things. Update it to 150% the poverty rate for an individual, $8.49/hr, index it to the cpi yearly, and encourage high cost of living states to set their own minimium wages.

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moonbeam said:   
KayK said:   
ganda said:   
scrouds said:   I appreciate your attempt to create a false dichotomy, but people will do dirty jobs and $15/hr is still ridiculous.
  
No, apparently people won't do dirty jobs, see what happened in Georgia when they drove away the dirty job doing illegals 

They had to get prisoners to work in the fields, North Korea style. 

Either you need to make the dirty jobs pay well enough (expensive strawberries), or you need people desperate enough they'll do the job for little money (illegal Guatemalans).

Even legal immigrants will do work for little money.
My parents earned a combined $15/hour back in late 1999/early 2000 to support us.
It's not about people desperate enough to work for low money. It's about businesses shrewd enough not to pay a living wage to it's workers.

You don't have to be an immigrant to work for almost nothing. A lot of people born in the US do the same because they don't have the money or intelligence for higher education or just because they can't find anything else. In some areas high paying jobs are rare.
 

  
How do you explain what happened in Georgia then? The existing workers were driven away and the crops rotted in the fields. We're talking about rural Georgia, not a high paying jobs area.

What will happen nationally when President Trump builds His Wall, and the existing labor is punted over that Wall? 

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KayK said:   moonbeam said:   [You don't have to be an immigrant to work for almost nothing. A lot of people born in the US do the same because they don't have the money or intelligence for higher education or just because they can't find anything else. In some areas high paying jobs are rare.In this case, shouldn't the individual move to somewhere where there are opportunities?
they can find opportunities online.. lots of public libraries have internet for free..
they can learn for free online.. there is lots of free education available..
I think the minimum wage right now is crap.. and I think that corporations only care for their numbers and stats rather than individuals.. they want to get the most money they can while paying employees as least as possible.
At the same time, I feel individuals do not take advantage of all free opportunities they get to improve their lives.. and take full advantage of all "free" money that they can get (food stamps, etc)
I have personally seen both sides (Uncle being a small business owner who wants to save as much as possible legally.. and sister's in-laws on food stamps.. legally.. even though sister and her husband earn more than 350k+)

What does a person born in US have to do with anything? A US citizen born in US has the same exact rights as a US citizen born somewhere else.. only exception is running for president. A legal US immigrant has same rights as a US citizen (born in US or not) other than some specific government related jobs.


Agreed. Rare as that might be lol

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At the end of the day, if we have farm labor shortages, we need to ramp up legal temporary farm worker visas.

We must enforce the law.

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scrouds said:   At the end of the day, if we have farm labor shortages, we need to ramp up legal temporary farm worker visas.

We must enforce the law.

  
I agree, but I don't believe We The People have the stomach for it (excuse the pun). It's like air ticket prices, we want lots of legroom and cheap tickets - well you can't have that. We want cheap food but no illegal immigrant labor - well you can't have that either.

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ganda said:   scrouds said:   At the end of the day, if we have farm labor shortages, we need to ramp up legal temporary farm worker visas.

We must enforce the law.

  
I agree, but I don't believe We The People have the stomach for it (excuse the pun). It's like air ticket prices, we want lots of legroom and cheap tickets - well you can't have that. We want cheap food but no illegal immigrant labor - well you can't have that either.

So what you're saying is that we just can't afford to pay Mexicans $15/hr?

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scrouds said:   The minimum wage needs to be fixed. It's currently 7 years old, not indexed to inflation. I would do 3 things. Update it to 150% the poverty rate for an individual, $8.49/hr, index it to the cpi yearly, and encourage high cost of living states to set their own minimium wages.
  Problem is, once it's indexed, it cease to be a political issue.  Both side like it to be a campaign issue.

rated:
ganda said:   
moonbeam said:   
KayK said:   
ganda said:   
scrouds said:   I appreciate your attempt to create a false dichotomy, but people will do dirty jobs and $15/hr is still ridiculous.
  
No, apparently people won't do dirty jobs, see what happened in Georgia when they drove away the dirty job doing illegals 

They had to get prisoners to work in the fields, North Korea style. 

Either you need to make the dirty jobs pay well enough (expensive strawberries), or you need people desperate enough they'll do the job for little money (illegal Guatemalans).

Even legal immigrants will do work for little money.
My parents earned a combined $15/hour back in late 1999/early 2000 to support us.
It's not about people desperate enough to work for low money. It's about businesses shrewd enough not to pay a living wage to it's workers.

You don't have to be an immigrant to work for almost nothing. A lot of people born in the US do the same because they don't have the money or intelligence for higher education or just because they can't find anything else. In some areas high paying jobs are rare.

  
How do you explain what happened in Georgia then? The existing workers were driven away and the crops rotted in the fields. We're talking about rural Georgia, not a high paying jobs area.

What will happen nationally when President Trump builds His Wall, and the existing labor is punted over that Wall? 

WTF are you talking about? Where did I say that Americans WANT to work at crappy jobs for little pay? I said it's not only immigrants who end up struggling to make ends meet because they can't find a good job. 

rated:
KayK said:   
moonbeam said:   [You don't have to be an immigrant to work for almost nothing. A lot of people born in the US do the same because they don't have the money or intelligence for higher education or just because they can't find anything else. In some areas high paying jobs are rare.
In this case, shouldn't the individual move to somewhere where there are opportunities?
they can find opportunities online.. lots of public libraries have internet for free..
they can learn for free online.. there is lots of free education available..
I think the minimum wage right now is crap.. and I think that corporations only care for their numbers and stats rather than individuals.. they want to get the most money they can while paying employees as least as possible.
At the same time, I feel individuals do not take advantage of all free opportunities they get to improve their lives.. and take full advantage of all "free" money that they can get (food stamps, etc)
I have personally seen both sides (Uncle being a small business owner who wants to save as much as possible legally.. and sister's in-laws on food stamps.. legally.. even though sister and her husband earn more than 350k+)

What does a person born in US have to do with anything? A US citizen born in US has the same exact rights as a US citizen born somewhere else.. only exception is running for president. A legal US immigrant has same rights as a US citizen (born in US or not) other than some specific government related jobs.

Again, WTF are you talking about? You are the one trying to make it sound like your parents/immigrants are the only ones who ever worked long hours at crappy jobs, struggling to make ends me. I have news for you: plenty of native born Americans do the same and have been doing the same for many, many years. You're not a special snowflake.

rated:
moonbeam said:   
ganda said:   
moonbeam said:   
KayK said:   
ganda said:   
scrouds said:   I appreciate your attempt to create a false dichotomy, but people will do dirty jobs and $15/hr is still ridiculous.
  
No, apparently people won't do dirty jobs, see what happened in Georgia when they drove away the dirty job doing illegals 

They had to get prisoners to work in the fields, North Korea style. 

Either you need to make the dirty jobs pay well enough (expensive strawberries), or you need people desperate enough they'll do the job for little money (illegal Guatemalans).

Even legal immigrants will do work for little money.
My parents earned a combined $15/hour back in late 1999/early 2000 to support us.
It's not about people desperate enough to work for low money. It's about businesses shrewd enough not to pay a living wage to it's workers.

You don't have to be an immigrant to work for almost nothing. A lot of people born in the US do the same because they don't have the money or intelligence for higher education or just because they can't find anything else. In some areas high paying jobs are rare.

  
How do you explain what happened in Georgia then? The existing workers were driven away and the crops rotted in the fields. We're talking about rural Georgia, not a high paying jobs area.

What will happen nationally when President Trump builds His Wall, and the existing labor is punted over that Wall? 

WTF are you talking about? Where did I say that Americans WANT to work at crappy jobs for little pay? I said it's not only immigrants who end up struggling to make ends meet because they can't find a good job. 
 

  
Potty mouth

Apparently there were no Americans in Georgia "struggling to make ends meet because they can't find a good job" willing to pick peaches for $10/hr. It certainly seems that way, doesn't it.

So the question remains the same:

Q. How do you make Americans harvest crops after The Wall goes up?
A. Pay them more, or make them so desperate they'll have to.

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Or you bring them back legally.

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CNN said this week that according to Gallup's daily tracking poll, Hillary Clinton is now viewed unfavorably by 57% of Americans.  Another poll, I don't recall which one, reported 56% unfavorable.   Anyone remember a time in history when both candidates for president had such high unfavorable ratings?   

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Or let the peach production (and all other foods) be imported from cheaper countries. It has worked with other products in this era of globalization. What could go wrong with importing all of our food?

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scrouds said:   The minimum wage needs to be fixed. It's currently 7 years old, not indexed to inflation. I would do 3 things. Update it to 150% the poverty rate for an individual, $8.49/hr, index it to the cpi yearly, and encourage high cost of living states to set their own minimium wages.
  Not every job is worth $8.49/hr.

If a business owner wants to pay someone $8.48/hr, and someone wants to work for $8.48/hr, what right do others have to stop them from their mutually agreed upon contract?

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scrouds said:   Or you bring them back legally.
  
Do we bring them back legally and treat them the same as we do when they're here illegally (exploitation since they're, you know, illegal an' all, wanna complain José?)  or do they get the same protections/rights as citizen workers? (It's that expensive food again, unless We The People codify exploitation of Them)

How do the Gulf states handle this with their legal migrant workers, and do we really want to follow their example?

Additionally, I suspect kicking out the Mexicans then inviting them back in legally may not assuage Trump's supporters. If they're Making America Great Again, that was, by their thinking, back when those Mexicans stayed in their own country, and The Others knew their place.

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ganda said:   scrouds said:   Or you bring them back legally.
  
Do we bring them back legally and treat them the same as we do when they're here illegally (exploitation since they're, you know, illegal an' all, wanna complain José?)  or do they get the same protections/rights as citizen workers? (It's that expensive food again, unless We The People codify exploitation of Them)

How do the Gulf states handle this with their legal migrant workers, and do we really want to follow their example?

Additionally, I suspect kicking out the Mexicans then inviting them back in legally may not assuage Trump's supporters. If they're Making America Great Again, that was, by their thinking, back when those Mexicans stayed in their own country, and The Others knew their place.


Non immigrant work visa. They get labor protections but not welfare, free schooling for their kids, etc

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I'm not familiar with immigration rules but there must be some sort of path to citizenship that is already available to people who arrive here illegally and can obtain employer sponsorship. A Mexican employee who works for a lawn maintenance company in my neighborhood is a nice guy who often helps an elderly neighbor with her plants.  We chat occasionally and one day he told me his story about his experience of crossing the border illegally almost two decades ago.  He explained that his employer helped him obtain citizenship a few years ago.  He speaks better English than some native born Americans and seems to works harder than most of his co-workers .  He has a wife + 5 kids and tells me they have never applied for any sort of public welfare assistance.  

I am in favor of allowing temporary work visas, however I agree with Scrouds that we can't continue to encourage people to come here illegally by offering free public benefits to those who arrive here illegally.
 

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Most farm products in the US are produced by very large entities that are heavily automated. Manual labor costs are a very small percentage of the cost of groceries (some estimates, which I don't know are accurate, are around 3%, but the percentage varies by product). If wages were doubled, it might have less effect on prices than some other factors, like weather and disease. If all illegal labor was eliminated at once, it would have a devastating effect on crops; but a gradual reduction accompanied by significantly higher wages would mitigate the effects on the amount, but not the cost of production. If labor costs increased significantly and remained higher, more labor would eventually be replaced by machinery, as I believe happened in Florida orange groves when machine pickers that had been said to be unsuitable were adapted to the task. Finally, there may be certain fruits or vegetables that can be grown more cheaply in other countries and there isn't too much risk in buying them from other countries as we do with bananas instead of trying to do so inside the US.


Rather than become a TLDR, I made a few statements that I believe are correct instead of trying to support each point. Also, I am merely looking at an alternative to illegal farm labor without opining on how we should handle the existing population of people in the US illegally.
 

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ryeny3 said:   Most farm products in the US are produced by very large entities that are heavily automated. Manual labor costs are a very small percentage of the cost of groceries (some estimates, which I don't know are accurate, are around 3%, but the percentage varies by product). If wages were doubled, it might have less effect on prices than some other factors, like weather and disease. If all illegal labor was eliminated at once, it would have a devastating effect on crops; but a gradual reduction accompanied by significantly higher wages would mitigate the effects on the amount, but not the cost of production. If labor costs increased significantly and remained higher, more labor would eventually be replaced by machinery, as I believe happened in Florida orange groves when machine pickers that had been said to be unsuitable were adapted to the task. Finally, there may be certain fruits or vegetables that can be grown more cheaply in other countries and there isn't too much risk in buying them from other countries as we do with bananas instead of trying to do so inside the US.


Rather than become a TLDR, I made a few statements that I believe are correct instead of trying to support each point. Also, I am merely looking at an alternative to illegal farm labor without opining on how we should handle the existing population of people in the US illegally.

  first problem: illegals are useful for much more than mere fruit picking.  they do other semi-skilled & skilled work for cut-rate. (examples: semi-skilled: janitorial & warehouse ....skilled: roofing, plumbing, cabinetry, upholstery, etc.)

second problem: a mere doubling (or even tripling) of fruit-picker wages might fail to attract enough non-illegals.  non-illegals would also probably demand both fringe benefits & overtime pay.  

How dangerous are fruit picking jobs?  If illegals were injured, they'd probably get a bullet to the back of the head & a burial in a remote desert.  What would happen when legals were injured & had workmen's comp.?  How much would those costs run?  what about costs for fake injuries? 

third problem: automation might not lack sophistication for most types of agriculture.  

fourth problem: if automation were sophisticated enough, it might require BOTH extensive capital outlays AND ongoing maintenance costs involving highly skilled (a.k.a. expensive) workers.

fifth problem: if automation worked, you'd still have to address my first point.  illegals are still in demand for a lot of non-agricultural activities, ones that don't currently lend themselves to automation.  how much would wages need to rise to fill those jobs legally?  are there enough legals ready to hit the ground running? would we have to wait several years for rookies to turn into journeymen?

rated:
deusxmachina said:   
Not every job is worth $8.49/hr.
If a business owner wants to pay someone $8.48/hr, and someone wants to work for $8.48/hr, what right do others have to stop them from their mutually agreed upon contract?

  the agreement can cause problems that go far beyond the contract.  

biz owner finds somebody for $8.48/hr.  then some kid agrees to drop out of school & do the job for $8/hr (under the table, of course)  meanwhile, he gets his teen girlfriend knocked-up, since he can't afford to cover rent on $8/hr.  she tells the gov't she doesn't know her kid's dad's name, since she doesn't want her man thrown in jail for failure to pay child support.

somewhat later, an illegal hears about the job.  then he sneaks into the US, agreeing to do the job for $7/hr. (under the table, of course)

the kid gets fired & can't find another job.  he has little education.  so he turns to serious crime.  meanwhile, he knocks up his gf a couple more times, increasing welfare benefits.  eventually he gets caught, getting 6 years in prison, at a cost of about $30k/yr.  

the first illegal knocks up his gf several times, too.  of course, she collects welfare, suffering the same amnesia as the kid's gf, regarding the name/names of her children's dad/dads.

a different illegal hears about the job, agreeing to do it for $6.50/hr. (under the table, of course).  

the first illegal gets fired.  when he applies for legal jobs, he finds that the going rate is now $6.25/hr, an amount he refuses to accept.  as a result, he turns to crime.  unfortunately, he gets caught, too, receiving a prison sentence of 4 yrs., at a cost of about $30k/yr.

the cycle goes on and on.

what's hilarious about a purely Libertarian approach to an employment contract is that the biz owner's self interest leads him to get the cheapest possible labor, irrespective of indirect costs, since they'll be absorbed by taxpayers.  he get to have his cake & eat it too (that's a cliche, but a correct one).

you'll say, "enforce the law."  but biz owners form special interests that continually grease the palms of politicians.  you gobble silly rhetoric & occasionally cast a meaningless vote.  who wins?

rated:
ganda said:   
larrymoencurly said:   
ganda said:   Any good popcorn suggestions for next week's Cleveland Clusterf***? [/monster truck announcer voice]

I have plenty of Popcornopolis Zebra lined up, but I'm happy to take suggestions on better.

Comedy Central and Late Show with Colbert?

 

  
I see Colbert is onsite in Cleveland

  
In case you missed it, this skit on Colbert's show was amusing:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7j11BfBhxw&feature=youtu.be


 

rated:
bighitter said:   I'm not familiar with immigration rules but there must be some sort of path to citizenship that is already available to people who arrive here illegally and can obtain employer sponsorship. 
 
Why "must" there be?  Why "must" there be a pathway to give the gift of citizenship to someone whose first act on U.S. soil is to break the law?  Break the law, get rewarded with citizenship?  

It's a slap in the face to everyone who follows the laws and immigrates legally.  There are people right now waiting in line to immigrate the lawful way.  They, and American veterans and American children, are being treated worse than illegal aliens are treated.

And making illegal workers legal defeats the benefits of hiring illegals anyway. 

rated:
deusxmachina said:   
bighitter said:   I'm not familiar with immigration rules but there must be some sort of path to citizenship that is already available to people who arrive here illegally and can obtain employer sponsorship. 
 
Why "must" there be?  Why "must" there be a pathway to give the gift of citizenship to someone whose first act on U.S. soil is to break the law?  Break the law, get rewarded with citizenship?  

It's a slap in the face to everyone who follows the laws and immigrates legally.  There are people right now waiting in line to immigrate the lawful way.  They, and American veterans and American children, are being treated worse than illegal aliens are treated.

And making illegal workers legal defeats the benefits of hiring illegals anyway. 

My prior post was poorly worded  Let me restate.  What I meant to convey is there apparently "already exists" some loopholes for path to citizenship for people who enter illegally.

I agree with you entirely that those who enter illegally shouldn't get rewarded when we require others (who abide by our laws) to stand in line for years for the opportunity to legally immigrate.

I don't see how we will be able to uproot those illegals who have been here for years, though, given that most have children now who were born in the US

rated:
wune said:   
deusxmachina said:   
Not every job is worth $8.49/hr.
If a business owner wants to pay someone $8.48/hr, and someone wants to work for $8.48/hr, what right do others have to stop them from their mutually agreed upon contract?


biz owner finds somebody for $8.48/hr.  then some kid agrees to drop out of school & do the job for $8/hr (under the table, of course)  meanwhile, he gets his teen girlfriend knocked-up, since he can't afford to cover rent on $8/hr.  she tells the gov't she doesn't know her kid's dad's name, since she doesn't want her man thrown in jail for failure to pay child support.

somewhat later, an illegal hears about the job.  then he sneaks into the US, agreeing to do the job for $7/hr. (under the table, of course)

the kid gets fired & can't find another job.  he has little education.  so he turns to serious crime.  meanwhile, he knocks up his gf a couple more times, increasing welfare benefits.  eventually he gets caught, getting 6 years in prison, at a cost of about $30k/yr.  

the first illegal knocks up his gf several times, too.  of course, she collects welfare, suffering the same amnesia as the kid's gf, regarding the name/names of her children's dad/dads.

what's hilarious about a purely Libertarian approach to an employment contract is that the biz owner's self interest leads him to get the cheapest possible labor, irrespective of indirect costs, since they'll be absorbed by taxpayers.  he get to have his cake & eat it too (that's a cliche, but a correct one).

 

  
A "purely Libertarian approach" wouldn't be using government's monopoly on force to take one person's money and redistribute it to someone else just because they can't remember the name of their baby's daddy.  Unlike current welfare, a "purely Libertarian approach" wouldn't encourage such behavior.  

Just because you offer to pay someone $1/hr doesn't mean they'll do it.  Certain Walmarts started paying cashiers $18/hr or so and oil changers $20/hr or so when they couldn't find enough people to fill the jobs at lower wages.  

Illegals, migrants, and "refugees," (infiltrated by terrorists that want to kill you, by the way), across the globe go to the dumb countries, have 10 kids, collect welfare on their 10 kids, welfare paid for by you, then get "free" education and "free" medical care for their 10 kids, again paid for by you, all of which takes away time and money and resources from your kids, and then their 10 kids continue the cycle, never assimilating, and ultimately having the sheer numbers to take over the country by vote or by force.

Read up on how illegal aliens are affecting U.S. schools.  Not only do illegal aliens' kids cost taxpayers 10s of billions of dollars every year, but teachers are forced to dumb down their teaching to accommodate students who can't speak English and can't even keep up with the class in the own language.  And your kids suffer for it.

The Democratic national convention put illegal aliens on stage during a national presidential election to show the citizens of the country that they are breaking the law and getting rewarded for it.  And then the leaders of the Democratic party tell more to come illegally and that they won't be deported.  That's not immigration. That's an invasion.

  

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