ICE and FBI using license plate readers to surveil people who are attending gun shows

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This is an article in East Idaho News, although I think the original information was uncovered and reported by the Wall Street Journal.  http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/10/local-gun-enthusiasts-react-fbi-surveillance-gun-shows/ 

Excerpt:

"Though information could lead to criminal gun activity, using license-plate readers also obtains information on law-abiding gun owners, which ends up getting recorded, stored and registered.  Not only does that use violate the Second Amendment, but is also a violation of the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act, according to Gun Owners of America’s Erich Pratt."

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Good. If I was a terrorist I'd buy my weapons of mass destruction at gun shows.

As long as the plate readers are on a public street where there is no expectation of privacy, there is nothing wrong with that. Any criminal worried about that could take a bus to the show.

Where I work they are using license plate readers to catch people parking in unassigned parking lots. And likely that information is being sold by the vendor to other sources like <tinfoilhat> FBI and ICE and CIA and IRS and StateFarm

ganda said:   Good. If I was a terrorist I'd buy my weapons of mass destruction at gun shows.
Do it. Let us know how hard it was to find your gun show loophole

The true irony here is that they come up with all these schemes to catch straw buyers but they don't prosecute them.

It's almost like they want our laws to be ineffective so they can justify new ones to ignore.

So?

ZenNUTS said:   So?
  exactly. the article notes that using plate readers violates the second amendment. how is that?
and of course, if you read the article, note that it cites the WSJ "According to emails reviewed by the Wall Street Journal, “Agents with the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency crafted a plan in 2010 to use license-plate readers..."
so somebody had a plan to possibly do this. the article doesn't even say that it was even done.
so panties can get unbunched.

 

miserly said:   ZenNUTS said:   So?
  exactly. the article notes that using plate readers violates the second amendment. how is that?
and of course, if you read the article, note that it cites the WSJ "According to emails reviewed by the Wall Street Journal, “Agents with the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency crafted a plan in 2010 to use license-plate readers..."
so somebody had a plan to possibly do this. the article doesn't even say that it was even done.
so panties can get unbunched.

 


If you take the supreme Court definition on reasonable restrictions, I find it hard to support that this violates the 2nd amendment. But GOA takes a hard line stance on "shall not be infringed" and they Consider any action targeting gun owners to be infringing.

Putting that issue aside, it is still illegal under FOPA.

But even if it wasn't illegal it's useless now. Anyone intending to break the law and straw buy for the cartels won't bring the same car they plan to cross the border with.

miserly said:   
ZenNUTS said:   So?
  exactly. the article notes that using plate readers violates the second amendment. how is that?
and of course, if you read the article, note that it cites the WSJ "According to emails reviewed by the Wall Street Journal, “Agents with the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency crafted a plan in 2010 to use license-plate readers..."
so somebody had a plan to possibly do this. the article doesn't even say that it was even done.
so panties can get unbunched.

 

You might want to read this quote from the Wall Street Journal.  Link may require a paid subscription, though, so I have pasted an excerpt below.  http://www.wsj.com/articles/gun-show-customers-license-plates-co... 

"Critics such as Mr. Pratt say using the technology for gun shows is illegal in any case because of the firearm owners act, which bans the government from creating records of gun buyers except temporarily for background checks.

"A spokeswoman for ICE acknowledged its Homeland Security Investigations agents in San Diego office conducted an operation at the Del Mar gun show. “In conducting these operations, HSI San Diego and its partners make every effort to utilize all investigative methods for planning purposes,” she said. “As for specific methods, HSI San Diego does not comment.

”The Journal obtained, through a request under the Freedom of Information Act, internal ICE emails showing agents in 2010 targeted a gun show called Crossroads of the West in Del Mar, Calif.More than half of the pages provided by the agency were completely redacted, or blacked out; others have large sections redacted, apparently to keep secret how the surveillance was undertaken.

The law-enforcement officials with knowledge of the operation confirmed ICE got local police officers to drive around the parking lot at the gun show and use their license-plate readers to collect all of the cars’ 
 

They should stop and frisk instead.

BrianGa said:   They should stop and frisk instead.
  
I just love the idea of those armed 24x7 anti-government types being stopped and frisked by tyrannical government agents.

Thinking of which, reminds me that at our local gun range, that I park opposite periodically, one of the employees (or a very frequent shooter) has a Don't Tread On Me anti big government Vanity license plate. That's right, an anti big government type willingly paid the government more money to make an anti-government protest. What a genius

( Scratches bar code on license plate...)

BrianGa said:   They should stop and frisk instead.
If the officers have a reasonable suspicion they comittited or are about to commit a crime, sure.

scrouds said:   
BrianGa said:   They should stop and frisk instead.
If the officers have a reasonable suspicion they comittited or are about to commit a crime, sure.

  
That's not what's required for stop and frisk though, you just need to be acting "suspiciously".

Is that person in the gun show parking lot who is looking around

a. looking for his parked truck, or
b. looking out for the cops because he's up to no good

I think it'll always be b. don't you?

ganda said:   scrouds said:   
BrianGa said:   They should stop and frisk instead.
If the officers have a reasonable suspicion they comittited or are about to commit a crime, sure.

  
That's not what's required for stop and frisk though, you just need to be acting "suspiciously".

Is that person in the gun show parking lot who is looking around

a. looking for his parked truck, or
b. looking out for the cops because he's up to no good

I think it'll always be b. don't you?


That's what I said. Reasonable suspicion. Someone going down parking lot aisles looking for his car looks suspicious.

I can see why someone might be annoyed, but violation of 2nd amendment? Sounds like the writer has never read the 2nd amendment.

I'll bet many gun show attendees are part of the 3% of the population who own half the guns . That's not home or self defense, that's something else, paranoia maybe, might want to keep an eye on those people. I'll further bet many crazy cat hoarding ladies attend cat shows.

I thought gun show goers were mostly collectors.

The ACLU's thoughts on their website linked below.   Fortunately the ACLU understands the potential risk of this surveillance practice even though some of the posters here on FW obviously don't.

An excerpt pasted below.  Link to the entire article here.  . http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/dea-planned-monitor-gun-show-attendees-license-plate-readers-new-emails-reveal 

"While in general we have not opposed the use of ALPRs for their stated purpose of checking plates against "hot lists" of known or suspected lawbreakers — provided the data on everyone else is not retained — we have serious concerns about using the technology in a way that is specifically targeted at people exercising their constitutionally protected rights."

ICE should concentrate on, oh I don't know, maybe something like removing illegal aliens instead of stalking people exercising their 2nd amendment rights. Given there're tens of millions of illegals, seems like they have plenty of subjects with which to keep themselves busy.

It's like feeling up blue haired ladies at the airport security stops; they're not a terror threat, and Duck Dynasty followers at a gun show aren't going to be either.

And this is why I have stolen plates on my car when I go to gun shows.

Uber in

ganda said:   I'll bet many gun show attendees are part of the 3% of the population who own half the guns That's not home or self defense,
  Don't need to own guns for home defense. The best thing to prevent home burglaries is parking a beat up pickup truck in the driveway with a few NRA stickers plastered on the rear bumper, assuming it has a rear bumper. Absence of said rear bumper would be an even better deterrent, in which case the stickers go on the back window. 

atikovi said:   ganda said:   I'll bet many gun show attendees are part of the 3% of the population who own half the guns That's not home or self defense,
  Don't need to own guns for home defense. The best thing to prevent home burglaries is parking a beat up pickup truck in the driveway with a few NRA stickers plastered on the rear bumper, assuming it has a rear bumper. Absence of said rear bumper would be an even better deterrent, in which case the stickers go on the back window. 

I do not advertise my position on guns. I don't want criminals waiting until I'm gone my place is an easy score to grab some guns to sell on the street.

atikovi said:   
ganda said:   I'll bet many gun show attendees are part of the 3% of the population who own half the guns That's not home or self defense,
  Don't need to own guns for home defense. The best thing to prevent home burglaries is parking a beat up pickup truck in the driveway with a few NRA stickers plastered on the rear bumper, assuming it has a rear bumper. Absence of said rear bumper would be an even better deterrent, in which case the stickers go on the back window. 

 And for those who are anti-gun ownership, please show your strength of conviction by posting "Gun Free Household" on the car in your driveway.


pickup
Disclaimer
scrouds said:   
atikovi said:   
ganda said:   I'll bet many gun show attendees are part of the 3% of the population who own half the guns That's not home or self defense,
  Don't need to own guns for home defense. The best thing to prevent home burglaries is parking a beat up pickup truck in the driveway with a few NRA stickers plastered on the rear bumper, assuming it has a rear bumper. Absence of said rear bumper would be an even better deterrent, in which case the stickers go on the back window. 

I do not advertise my position on guns. I don't want criminals waiting until I'm gone my place is an easy score to grab some guns to sell on the street.

  If you keep said pickup at home all the time, most criminals won't take the chance of you being gone or not if they break in. I always have 4 or 5 vehicles in the driveway or parked in front of the house. Never had a break in, and very few salesman knocking on my door. This could be why http://www.fototime.com/58FCBAAADC5463A/large.jpg 

This is being done by many agencies across the country. Many patrol cars are outfitted with cameras. They are always scanning. Some mount cameras at intersections as well. Also, there are commercial uses. Your license plate is getting tracked and stored routinely in many locales.

Unless you have a militia in your house, what's the point of having more than a handful of guns? I have a shotgun for skeet/trap. A .22 pistol and rifle for Target practice, a .40S&W pistol and both a bolt action and semi auto .223 rifle because that's what's practical.

Gun shows you can go home with a gun the same day. However also with background checks, if it doesn't come back in either it was 48 or 72 hours, they have to sell you the gun. At the same time an improvement to the system that would tie all states databases together and allow realtime checks would help, but they're bordering on becoming a police state with Trump's "stop and frisk" he's trying to push. We do have an issue with gun violence here though, the statistics unfortunately show we have a high number of gun related deaths yet also places like Australia that banned guns have more murders now than before. The argument can be made both ways both for and against gun ownership. The solution simply isn't "get rid of all (legally owned) guns".

I like how other countries handle gun ownership. You either need a justified reason to own them, like showing you actively hunt and have access to hunting land. Or, you have to go through a safety course to demonstrate you can safely handle the weapon and they can see you're fit to own one. It could be helpful, but it's an unfortunate scenario they could botch it and prevent many from having firearms.

Something is going to have to be done, the question is just what?

thumpergeek said:   I have a shotgun for skeet/trap. A .22 pistol and rifle for Target practice, a .40S&W pistol and both a bolt action and semi auto .223 rifle 
  That's more guns than I have pairs of shoes.

thumpergeek said:   Unless you have a militia in your house, what's the point of having more than a handful of guns? I have a shotgun for skeet/trap. A .22 pistol and rifle for Target practice, a .40S&W pistol and both a bolt action and semi auto .223 rifle because that's what's practical.

Gun shows you can go home with a gun the same day. However also with background checks, if it doesn't come back in either it was 48 or 72 hours, they have to sell you the gun. At the same time an improvement to the system that would tie all states databases together and allow realtime checks would help, but they're bordering on becoming a police state with Trump's "stop and frisk" he's trying to push. We do have an issue with gun violence here though, the statistics unfortunately show we have a high number of gun related deaths yet also places like Australia that banned guns have more murders now than before. The argument can be made both ways both for and against gun ownership. The solution simply isn't "get rid of all (legally owned) guns".

I like how other countries handle gun ownership. You either need a justified reason to own them, like showing you actively hunt and have access to hunting land. Or, you have to go through a safety course to demonstrate you can safely handle the weapon and they can see you're fit to own one. It could be helpful, but it's an unfortunate scenario they could botch it and prevent many from having firearms.

Something is going to have to be done, the question is just what?


You know what I have,its pretty cool, type 99 arisaka Japanese rifle, not in shooting condition. Appears to be a wartime prize, no import marks dirtying up the gun. The Japanese imperial chrysanthemum is also pretty cool. It has absolutely no practical purpose. What's the point you might ask? I don't need a point. History is cool, guns are cool. I might see if I could get it into shooting condition but I'm doubtful.

Not everything you own must be practical. There are 3 basic types of people. Those that hate guns, those that see their utility, and those that make it a hobby. Don't knock someone's hobby. So they have a lot of guns, so what? Coin people have lots of coins, car people have lots of cars if finances allow, and so on.

I collect spores, molds and fungus.

BrianGa said:   I collect spores, molds and fungus.
You're probably on a list Egon.

BrianGa said:   I collect spores, molds and fungus.
 

  

Me too! Not on purpose, mind you...



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