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Paypal started a claim of Unauthorized charge on an Item I sold over 2 months ago on Ebay.

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First time I've had this happen and I've been on eBay over 15 years. I sold a $125 transmission which was listed for local pick up back in April. Buyer paid with Paypal and picked it up a few days later. Today I see a negative balance in my account and that transaction is claimed as unauthorized. Before responding to the Paypal claim, any suggestions from those more experienced in these situations?

Moderator Comment: This thread is mirrored to these forums: DEAL DISCUSSION, FINANCE, ONLINE AUCTION INFO. — Jul. 20, 2017 @ 3:54pm
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He probably read this thread...

ocean935 (Jun. 28, 2017 @ 11:27p) |

That conduct is appropriate and litigation privileged in California.  I send this letter about once a month.

Crazytree (Jun. 29, 2017 @ 2:40a) |

Is that also true if he is self employed or owns a small Business?

rufflesinc (Jun. 29, 2017 @ 3:30a) |

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Hate to tell you this, but consider this lost money. You will lose the case as you have no proof that you delivered the item.

Never, ever do local pickup on eBay/Paypal (as a seller).

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tennis8363 said:   Hate to tell you this, but consider this lost money. You will lose the case as you have no proof that you delivered the item.

Never, ever do local pickup on eBay /Paypal (as a seller).

  Item listed only for local pickup. And this isn't about an item not received, it's about an unauthorized payment. Could just as well happen with shipped items. 

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atikovi said:   
tennis8363 said:   Hate to tell you this, but consider this lost money. You will lose the case as you have no proof that you delivered the item.

Never, ever do local pickup on eBay /Paypal (as a seller).

  Item listed only for local pickup. And this isn't about an item not received, it's about an unauthorized payment. Could just as well happen with shipped items. 

Doesn't matter. You have no proof he received the merchandise. Never, ever do local pickup unless you have them sign a document stating what they received, when they received it, condition, etc. Sorry, again, good luck, but I don't think you have a chance.

Straight from Paypal:

"Unauthorized Transactions additional requirements To be covered by PayPal’s Seller Protection program for a buyer’s Unauthorized Transaction claim, you must meet both the basic requirements listed above and the additional requirements listed below:

The payment must be marked “eligible” or “partially eligible” for PayPal's Seller Protection on the Transaction Details page.You must provide proof of shipment or proof of delivery  as described below. Establishing proof of delivery or proof of shipment
The following is required as proof of shipment
-Proof of deliveryOnline or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes date of shipment
-An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
-An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).
-Online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes date of delivery and ‘delivered’ status
-An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
-An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).Signature confirmation, if the full amount of the payment including shipping and t-taxes exceeds a fixed amount (based on the currency of the payment) from the signature confirmation threshold table below. Signature confirmation is online documentation, viewable at the shipping company’s website, indicating that the item was signed for.

IMPORTANT:  Your choice of carrier and shipment options with that carrier can have a big impact on your ability to meet the proof of delivery requirements. "

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full
 

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tennis8363 said:   
atikovi said:   
tennis8363 said:   Hate to tell you this, but consider this lost money. You will lose the case as you have no proof that you delivered the item.

Never, ever do local pickup on eBay /Paypal (as a seller).

  Item listed only for local pickup. And this isn't about an item not received, it's about an unauthorized payment. Could just as well happen with shipped items. 

Doesn't matter. You have no proof he received the merchandise. Never, ever do local pickup unless you have them sign a document stating what they received, when they received it, condition, etc. Sorry, again, good luck, but I don't think you have a chance.

Straight from Paypal:

"Unauthorized Transactions additional requirements To be covered by PayPal’s Seller Protection program for a buyer’s Unauthorized Transaction claim, you must meet both the basic requirements listed above and the additional requirements listed below:

The payment must be marked “eligible” or “partially eligible” for PayPal's Seller Protection on the Transaction Details page.You must provide proof of shipment or proof of delivery  as described below. Establishing proof of delivery or proof of shipment
The following is required as proof of shipment
-Proof of deliveryOnline or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes date of shipment
-An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
-An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).
-Online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes date of delivery and ‘delivered’ status
-An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
-An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).Signature confirmation, if the full amount of the payment including shipping and t-taxes exceeds a fixed amount (based on the currency of the payment) from the signature confirmation threshold table below. Signature confirmation is online documentation, viewable at the shipping company’s website, indicating that the item was signed for.

IMPORTANT:  Your choice of carrier and shipment options with that carrier can have a big impact on your ability to meet the proof of delivery requirements. "

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full 

  Couldn't you take a photo of the person holding their license and have them sign a receipt that you keep?

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You are not covered under seller protection unless you have proof of delivery to the paypal confirmed address. If it is over $650 you need signature confirmation(restricted signature is best). You can message the buyer and respond to the paypal claim. Hopefully the buyer will admit they received it or it was a mistake, or paypal will just eat it. Do you have any pictures or anything from when the buyer picked it up? If it comes to it you can report the buyer to the police and sue them in small claims court if you have the time

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even a photo of buyer getting item or signed document from buyer will NOT meet pp requirements and you will lose!  pp is very strict here! You are at the mercy of the buyer being honest and not try ing to scam ylu when you use pp for fleabay local pickup. The buyer can either claim non delivery or the buyer can use a stolen cc or the buyer can claim that his cc was unauthorized... the buyer scams are endless with pp and local pickup.

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You should only accept cold hard cash for local-pickups; add this disclaimer to your listings...

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icecube said:   You should only accept cold hard cash for local-pickups; add this disclaimer to your listings...
 cashier's check or money order are actually safer.... 

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If you put "I only accept cash or money order for local pickup" in your fleabay listing, then fleabay automatically blocks your listing.
Instead, you have to do this 'creatively' to get around this.

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sloppy1 said:   If you put "I only accept cash or money order for local pickup" in your fleabay listing, then fleabay automatically blocks your listing.
Instead, you have to do this 'creatively' to get around this.


My listings state the following and eBay has never blocked any of my listings:

"Local buyers may pick up the item to save on shipping, however payment must be via cash...I will not accept Paypal for local pick-ups.."

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I just tried that the other day. The auction was blocked and I got a response that it's a violation of the terms of service to include any language which "dissuades potential bidders from bidding". It specifically listed restricting purchases to cash as a violation. I guess it's hit or miss as to whether they catch it.

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Ship a brick to the address. You will have a proof of delivery.  This happened to me once.  I shipped the item without tracking.  Buyer gave me a feedback of slow shipping.  I gave them a negative.  (At that time you could give buyer a negative.)  In retaliation, buyer opened "item not received dispute."  Paypal asked for tracking, I shipped crap and provided the tracking, case closed.

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You have his name, you have his address, and he's local. Call him up and explain that you will be filing a police report if he doesn't cancel his claim. As an added bonus, see if you can figure out where he works for additional leverage.

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king0fSpades said:   Ship a brick to the address. You will have a proof of delivery.  This happened to me once.  I shipped the item without tracking.  Buyer gave me a feedback of slow shipping.  I gave them a negative.  (At that time you could give buyer a negative.)  In retaliation, buyer opened "item not received dispute."  Paypal asked for tracking, I shipped crap and provided the tracking, case closed.
  Proof of delivery doesn't affect a 'Not Authorized' claim.

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icecube said:   
sloppy1 said:   If you put "I only accept cash or money order for local pickup" in your fleabay listing, then fleabay automatically blocks your listing.
Instead, you have to do this 'creatively' to get around this.


My listings state the following and eBay has never blocked any of my listings:

"Local buyers may pick up the item to save on shipping, however payment must be via cash...I will not accept Paypal for local pick-ups.."

  An electronic payment method must be included in any listing. You have to accept that payment even for local pickup. Maybe no buyer yet has reported you for not accepting Paypal after they made a purchase. 

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Rajjeq said:   You have his name, you have his address, and he's local. Call him up and explain that you will be filing a police report if he doesn't cancel his claim. As an added bonus, see if you can figure out where he works for additional leverage.
After all, a scammer would never provide a fake name, address, or phone #.  

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Rajjeq said:   You have his name, you have his address, and he's local. Call him up and explain that you will be filing a police report if he doesn't cancel his claim. As an added bonus, see if you can figure out where he works for additional leverage.
 Address is a $500K townhouse. Don't think a scammer makes that much money. I sent him a message through eBay this morning but don't expect any reply.

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Years ago when i was still quite naive, I accepted pp for purchase of $25 Amazoon GC which I mailed to the buyer in Beverly Hills.  The buyer mailed me a written thank you note, then used the GC and filed unauthorized cc use complaint with pp.  He won, of course, despite my showing pp his thank you note!

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atikovi said:   
icecube said:   
sloppy1 said:   If you put "I only accept cash or money order for local pickup" in your fleabay listing, then fleabay automatically blocks your listing.
Instead, you have to do this 'creatively' to get around this.


My listings state the following and eBay has never blocked any of my listings:

"Local buyers may pick up the item to save on shipping, however payment must be via cash...I will not accept Paypal for local pick-ups.."

  An electronic payment method must be included in any listing. You have to accept that payment even for local pickup. Maybe no buyer yet has reported you for not accepting Paypal after they made a purchase. 

  Can you make the buyer sign a acceptance note?  Not sure that would do any good but may help in small-claim.

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Rajjeq said:   You have his name, you have his address, and he's local. Call him up and explain that you will be filing a police report if he doesn't cancel his claim. As an added bonus, see if you can figure out where he works for additional leverage.
  
+1 Just bug the shit out of him until he stops. You'll just have to be a pain in the ass until he drops his claim.

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I sold an item on eBay that I mailed to the buyer. The buyer even responded that he received it and it worked great. Not too long after, the charge was disputed and paypal took my money. IIRC, that user's account was never banned, either - and it had over 30 feedback. Grr.

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forbin4040 said:   
king0fSpades said:   Ship a brick to the address. You will have a proof of delivery.  This happened to me once.  I shipped the item without tracking.  Buyer gave me a feedback of slow shipping.  I gave them a negative.  (At that time you could give buyer a negative.)  In retaliation, buyer opened "item not received dispute."  Paypal asked for tracking, I shipped crap and provided the tracking, case closed.
  Proof of delivery doesn't affect a 'Not Authorized' claim.

  You would be incorrect. Read up on the PayPal polices. They will enlighten you!

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tennis8363 said:   
forbin4040 said:   
king0fSpades said:   Ship a brick to the address. You will have a proof of delivery.  This happened to me once.  I shipped the item without tracking.  Buyer gave me a feedback of slow shipping.  I gave them a negative.  (At that time you could give buyer a negative.)  In retaliation, buyer opened "item not received dispute."  Paypal asked for tracking, I shipped crap and provided the tracking, case closed.
  Proof of delivery doesn't affect a 'Not Authorized' claim.

  You would be incorrect. Read up on the PayPal polices. They will enlighten you!

  I have been Enlightened!

Yup if you ship to the confirmed address you are covered.  Hmmm.learned something today.
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection

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solarUS said:   
icecube said:   You should only accept cold hard cash for local-pickups; add this disclaimer to your listings...
 cashier's check or money order are actually safer.... 

  Both are easily counterfeited.

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Using eBay for 15 years without knowing the very basics, you have been very lucky to not have this happen to you before. Cash on collection is a perfectly valid form of payment according to ebay, yes, you may need to have an electronic option for many listings, but you don't actually have to allow collection on it. If someone pays with paypal, you are supposed to offer shipping to the paypal verified address so that you have seller protection, if they want to pick it up you can refund and they can pay. So, you can't win with paypal right now (although I thought there was a limit at 2 months, has that changed?), but you can still go after the buyer outside paypal.

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Ecuadorgr said:    if they want to pick it up you can refund and they can pay. 
If Paypal is a payment option in the listing you are required to accept it whether you ship it or it's picked up. If you refund, buyer can complain to eBay and leave negative feedback. I know I would be mad if I paid for something bought on eBay with a 2% back credit card via Paypal and the seller refunded saying he now wants cash on pickup. This is a fault with eBay, not letting you create a local pickup listing for cash only.

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atikovi said:   
Ecuadorgr said:    if they want to pick it up you can refund and they can pay. 
If Paypal is a payment option in the listing you are required to accept it whether you ship it or it's picked up. If you refund, buyer can complain to eBay and leave negative feedback. I know I would be mad if I paid for something bought on eBay with a 2% back credit card via Paypal and the seller refunded saying he now wants cash on pickup. This is a fault with eBay, not letting you create a local pickup listing for cash only.

 I've only sold about a hundred items in about a decade, but I've never had anyone complain about it when I have it clearly described (almost all had "cash on collection" as option and many were sold that way), and in general that is what non-professional sellers do (professional sellers don't really let you collect - or if they did they'd rather lose the cost of an item than get a neg).
You simply avoid the easiest of buyer scams that way. You have three options, not allow pickup, allow pickup but only with cash and have a very low risk someone might complain even if you make it clear (a potential scammer would probably complain), or allow paypal on pickup but be aware that you are very open to a scam as you have no protection. That's how it has always worked, nothing new. But, still, they owe you money, if you know who/where they are you should be able to pursue outside paypal.

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Ecuadorgr said:   
 allow pickup but only with cash and have a very low risk someone might complain even if you make it clear 

I've only sold about a thousand, and it seems many people don't even read beyond the title or just look at the pictures, so it doesn't seem to matter how clearly I say cash on pickup in the description. Just in the last few months, I've had half a dozen people from half way to all the way across the country bid on a local pickup item, pay for it, then a few hours later, AFTER they have read the description, ask me to cancel the sale because they didn't realize its for local pickup. There were a few items that I was able to ship because they were willing to pay the shipping, but one guy was a jerk. After getting a shipping quote on a $50 center console of $75, he was all sorry about buying and asked me to cancel and refund, so I did, and the next day he gives me a negative saying I tried to rip him off on shipping. Got the neg removed.

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Rajjeq said:   You have his name, you have his address, and he's local. Call him up and explain that you will be filing a police report if he doesn't cancel his claim. As an added bonus, see if you can figure out where he works for additional leverage.
  In California this would be felony extortion pursuant to Penal Code Sec. 518.  And I am an expert on this area of law, as I have litigated it extensively.  The main point: it doesn't matter if someone committed the crime or not, threatening to call the police unless they give you something of value is plain-vanilla extortion.  And the caselaw is clear going back at least 70 years in California... the law applies even if the other party is guilty.  In fact, that's usually when it applies... because that's how blackmail works.

Calling his work would get you sued for interference with prospective economic gain if he lost his job over it.  According to FWF it would be worth it to pay attorney's fees on top of damages for lost income over a lost $150.

IANYL

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jrbrown1991 said:   I sold an item on eBay that I mailed to the buyer. The buyer even responded that he received it and it worked great. Not too long after, the charge was disputed and paypal took my money. IIRC, that user's account was never banned, either - and it had over 30 feedback. Grr.
  That happened to me one time, buyer had already eBay messaged me and left positive feedback.  I messaged the buyer and responded to the dispute, and buyer said they mistakenly submitted the unauthorized dispute. This was ~$125 about 8 years ago.  All I can figure is they intended to scam (counting on someone just not noticing the dispute?) then figured not worth the trouble after there was any response.

I've done ~$16k sales total, expected some product shrinkage, but have never been scammed once.  It's been a few years and I mainly sold new electronics, some media, and some event tickets(!).  Which is oddly some of the categories that are supposed to be the highest risk.  Also a few $1000 in opened Hersheys candy wrappers, but won't get into that story.

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Bend3r said:    Also a few $1000 in opened Hersheys candy wrappers, but won't get into that story.
 

  Oh, come on, you can't tease like that.

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CrashCart9 said:   
Bend3r said:    Also a few $1000 in opened Hersheys candy wrappers, but won't get into that story.
  Oh, come on, you can't tease like that.

  It's not "that" interesting but Hershey and eBay had a contest with "live online auctions" (they had another incarnation a few years ago that was not similar at all), it was headlined by some Audi car grand prizes (6?).  You got 2 points per most wrappers or 3 points for some others.  And you were limited by how many you could enter per day.  I never found a cheap source for 3pt wrappers so no audi for me but easily would have paid a <$3-5k for an audi (A6? Going from memory) if I had found them at the start.  I think I ended up breaking even near net-$0 costs by selling some of the wrappers to pay for the ones used in our accounts.  Ended up with some assorted prizes, some hersheys themed merchandise, assorted sharper image merchandise, a wood/leather sharper image massage chair, a Geochron wall clock (that i need to get around to fixing), a ~$1500 sony dvd camcorder (worthless now but cool tech at the time) that recorded 1080p and surround sound and with night vision, and an expensive version of a Bose Radio (~$1500 msrp).  That was all from using ~$1500 worth of candy bars at 4/1$ and selling another ~$2k of wrappers for ~$4k.  I should have tracked how many candy bars exactly but don't remember.  I think it was literally ~2 tonnes of candy.  It was further hillarious that the store i bought them from had store printed mfr coupons need for each one or few bars.  And at a few stores they went and printed like a ream of paper with 6 or 8 coupons per sheet so that I could buy ~90% of their stock (over $1000 that one time).   
Sadly no companies make contests like they used to.  Mcdonalds used to run a decent monopoly you could get Best Buy credit at something like 80% off through sending in SASE, along with a bunch of Mcdonalds food.

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I would inform the buyer that this needs to be resolved or you will contact the local police and file a theft report. But it may have been a hacked account.

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Ecuadorgr said:    But, still, they owe you money, if you know who/where they are you should be able to pursue outside paypal.
 

  That's assuming the person who picked up the item is the same person starting the dispute...

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Bend3r said:   
CrashCart9 said:   
Bend3r said:    Also a few $1000 in opened Hersheys candy wrappers, but won't get into that story.
  Oh, come on, you can't tease like that.

  It's not "that" interesting but Hershey and eBay had a contest with "live online auctions" (they had another incarnation a few years ago that was not similar at all), it was headlined by some Audi car grand prizes (6?).  You got 2 points per most wrappers or 3 points for some others.  And you were limited by how many you could enter per day.  I never found a cheap source for 3pt wrappers so no audi for me but easily would have paid a <$3-5k for an audi (A6? Going from memory) if I had found them at the start.  I think I ended up breaking even near net-$0 costs by selling some of the wrappers to pay for the ones used in our accounts.  Ended up with some assorted prizes, some hersheys themed merchandise, assorted sharper image merchandise, a wood/leather sharper image massage chair, a Geochron wall clock (that i need to get around to fixing), a ~$1500 sony dvd camcorder (worthless now but cool tech at the time) that recorded 1080p and surround sound and with night vision, and an expensive version of a Bose Radio (~$1500 msrp).  That was all from using ~$1500 worth of candy bars at 4/1$ and selling another ~$2k of wrappers for ~$4k.  I should have tracked how many candy bars exactly but don't remember.  I think it was literally ~2 tonnes of candy.  It was further hillarious that the store i bought them from had store printed mfr coupons need for each one or few bars.  And at a few stores they went and printed like a ream of paper with 6 or 8 coupons per sheet so that I could buy ~90% of their stock (over $1000 that one time).   
Sadly no companies make contests like they used to.  Mcdonalds used to run a decent monopoly you could get Best Buy credit at something like 80% off through sending in SASE, along with a bunch of Mcdonalds food.

  How did you dispose of tons of Hershey's chocolate?

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Instead of I'll call the police if you don't cease, desist, pay etc.

Should I go to the police or will you cease, desist, pay etc.?

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Crazytree said:   
  How did you dispose of tons of Hershey's chocolate?

Donated most of it. I think a relative also has maybe one gallon ziploc of Hershey Milk Chocolate bars still in a freezer.

I also screwed up and lost ~$1000 store credit I had from the contest in the Sharper Image BK. That was dumb. Not the only time I've wasted some money though.
  

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Crazytree said:   
Rajjeq said:   You have his name, you have his address, and he's local. Call him up and explain that you will be filing a police report if he doesn't cancel his claim. As an added bonus, see if you can figure out where he works for additional leverage.
  In California this would be felony extortion pursuant to Penal Code Sec. 518.  And I am an expert on this area of law, as I have litigated it extensively.  The main point: it doesn't matter if someone committed the crime or not, threatening to call the police unless they give you something of value is plain-vanilla extortion.  And the caselaw is clear going back at least 70 years in California... the law applies even if the other party is guilty.  In fact, that's usually when it applies... because that's how blackmail works.

Calling his work would get you sued for interference with prospective economic gain if he lost his job over it.  According to FWF it would be worth it to pay attorney's fees on top of damages for lost income over a lost $150.

IANYL

  You aren't allowed to tell a thief you will report his crime if he doesn't return what he stole?

Skipping 14 Messages...
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Crazytree said:   .

Calling his work would get you sued for interference with prospective economic gain if he lost his job over it.  According to FWF it would be worth it to pay attorney's fees on top of damages for lost income over a lost $150.

IANYL

Is that also true if he is self employed or owns a small Business?

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