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Vista is dead! Long Live Windows 10

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http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/11/15241580/microsoft-windows-vis...

Vista has been officially taken off support, and no one has noticed.  Haha

When XP was taken off, there was a huge row but the crapfest called Vista no one cares.
 

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forbin4040 (May. 13, 2017 @ 11:26a) |

B2B software that I work on is used by financial professionals still is showing XP machines in it's analytics.

Even worse... (more)

riznick (May. 14, 2017 @ 6:33p) |

Windows XP is good but now I am using Windows 10 which is really best I think!
Thanks!

only1kolly (May. 15, 2017 @ 11:21a) |

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Pretty sure people noticed. There was an article about it, after all

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Vista has been dead to a lot of people for years. XP was a great OS for its time - long obsolete now, but one I can understand mourning when support ended.

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Vista had little corporate adoption; a lot of businesses and governments jumped from XP to 7 instead. 

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What's vista?

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People always want to upgrade. And the latest version of Windows has come out. So, why you'll use Vista now a days?

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jbunky said:   People always want to upgrade. And the latest version of Windows has come out. So, why you'll use Vista now a days?
  
Not everyone; some people are fine using the same version of Windows for the life of their PC. This worked ok when people were replacing their PCs more often, but nowadays a 10 year old PC is still going to be fine for basic web browsing and email.

Hell, I knew some people that were stubbornly sticking with Windows XP even after Windows 7 had been released, even when the consensus was that Windows 7 was better in almost every way and could run about as well as XP on almost any hardware, especially if it was XP SP3, which needed at least 1GB RAM to run well.

I suspect there are some people still running PCs with Windows Vista because they never bothered to pay for a Windows upgrade on the PC. 

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It's not stubborn to stay on XP. Win 7 was different than XP and some programs won't be able to run, and if you work in the government, you know they don't have any money for infrastructure.

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forbin4040 said:   It's not stubborn to stay on XP. Win 7 was different than XP and some programs won't be able to run, and if you work in the government, you know they don't have any money for infrastructure.
  
Once XP was off extended support (which was close to 5 years after Windows 7 was released), it was incredibly risky to keep XP as the main OS. MS even offered "XP Mode" on Windows 7 Pro for free, basically a Windows XP VM, so only the few legacy programs that "needed" XP would actually be run on the less secure OS. And the risk wasn't just to yourself, XP machines could be hijacked and used in botnets, potentially without the owner of the PC even aware.

Also, a number of government agencies ended up paying Microsoft a boatload of money for a Custom Support Agreement (CSA) for Windows XP past its intended lifespan.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/06/navy-re-u...

Software, OS, and hardware upgrades all need to be part of any institution's budget, and upgrades should be planned years in advance, which is why MS supports each OS for so long. I mean, MS had released Windows 8 before XP's extended support ended, so there were 3 newer versions of the OS out while people were still using XP. If that's not stubbornness, it's extremely poor planning.

But besides that, I saw a lot of comments online of people saying they were going to stick with XP just because of of personal preference, not even for legacy support. 

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marsilies said:   
 
Software, OS, and hardware upgrades all need to be part of any institution's budget, and upgrades should be planned years in advance, which is why MS supports each OS for so long. I mean, MS had released Windows 8 before XP's extended support ended, so there were 3 newer versions of the OS out while people were still using XP. If that's not stubbornness, it's extremely poor planning. 

  Obviously you don't work in Government.

Almost all money goes to new projects, not to shore up old projects. (Yes I'm generalizing, but if you work in government you will agree)

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forbin4040 said:   
marsilies said:   
If that's not stubbornness, it's extremely poor planning.

  Obviously you don't work in Government.

Almost all money goes to new projects, not to shore up old projects. (Yes I'm generalizing, but if you work in government you will agree)

Of course, which is why I included "poor planning" as an option.

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marsilies said:   
forbin4040 said:   It's not stubborn to stay on XP. Win 7 was different than XP and some programs won't be able to run, and if you work in the government, you know they don't have any money for infrastructure.
  
Once XP was off extended support (which was close to 5 years after Windows 7 was released), it was incredibly risky to keep XP as the main OS.
 

  You say that like there aren't still lots of machines out there on XP.  Many older ATMs in the US still use it, but mainly I mean outside the US where it's still very common on Desktops.

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marsilies said:   
jbunky said:   People always want to upgrade. And the latest version of Windows has come out. So, why you'll use Vista now a days?
  
Not everyone; some people are fine using the same version of Windows for the life of their PC. This worked ok when people were replacing their PCs more often, but nowadays a 10 year old PC is still going to be fine for basic web browsing and email.

Hell, I knew some people that were stubbornly sticking with Windows XP even after Windows 7 had been released, even when the consensus was that Windows 7 was better in almost every way and could run about as well as XP on almost any hardware, especially if it was XP SP3, which needed at least 1GB RAM to run well.

I suspect there are some people still running PCs with Windows Vista because they never bothered to pay for a Windows upgrade on the PC. 

  It's okey some people are still use the same programme as they have learnt. But for 80-90% of those make changes. So that they want to upgrade.

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forbin4040 said:   It's not stubborn to stay on XP. Win 7 was different than XP and some programs won't be able to run, and if you work in the government, you know they don't have any money for infrastructure.
  
Your argument about using XP is right. They will not bear any extra cost for this to upgrade the version.

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minidrag said:   
marsilies said:   
Once XP was off extended support (which was close to 5 years after Windows 7 was released), it was incredibly risky to keep XP as the main OS.

You say that like there aren't still lots of machines out there on XP.  Many older ATMs in the US still use it, but mainly I mean outside the US where it's still very common on Desktops.

US ATMs are likely running Windows XP Embedded, which is based on the XP code base but has significant differences. For one, OEMs can actually remove a lot normally non-removable components from the OS if they're features they don't need for a given device/application. This can save both disk space and RAM requirements, but also reduces the exploit footprint, since a certain component being attacked may simply not exist on that install. For another, those systems are extremely locked down and not general purpose devices, so may have locked out installing and/or running arbitrary code, have no web browser to speak of, etc.... 

Outside the US, if there's standard home desktops still running XP, they're much more vulnerable to exploits and attacks. Using up-to-date third-party web browsers and keeping other 3rd party tools like Adobe Flash and Reader updated can mitigate some risk, as is keeping a current anti-malware program running. But those can't stop everything, and there are known security holes in XP that just aren't getting fixed, as well as simply not having as many security features built into the OS as newer versions of Windows do. Also, that third-party program support is going away, so people will be left with out-of-date browsers and other programs, again with known, unpatched, security holes.

Saying "well, people still use XP" is like saying, "well, people still have unprotected sex." It's true, but it doesn't mean those people aren't exposing themselves to significantly more risk. 
 

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marsilies said:   
Saying "well, people still use XP" is like saying, "well, people still have unprotected sex." It's true, but it doesn't mean those people aren't exposing themselves to significantly more risk. 
 

  I wasn't trying to imply that it was safe.  I was just saying that there are a lot of machines out there still using it.  Your comparison isn't bad, because you know there are many people people having unprotected sex.

Your statements heavily implied that there weren't many and that it was only people that planned poorly.  The truth is a bit more complicated.

As for XP embedded for ATMs, yes, some do protect themselves as you stated.  But don't kid yourself into thinking that all of them do.  There are lots of cheap ATMs out there that are very open to attack by simply gaining access to a USB port.  Many of the third party companies that put them out there just don't know a damn thing about security.

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jbunky said:   
forbin4040 said:   It's not stubborn to stay on XP. Win 7 was different than XP and some programs won't be able to run, and if you work in the government, you know they don't have any money for infrastructure.
  
Your argument about using XP is right. They will not bear any extra cost for this to upgrade the version.

  What?  Even back when upgrading to 10 was free there was still cost - downtime during the upgrade, training, testing, and possibly upgrading other software to work with it.

Now the free upgrade is long over, so there is cost just like there always has been, to upgrade the OS.

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minidrag said:   Your statements heavily implied that there weren't many and that it was only people that planned poorly.
 
I never said that there weren't "many," for whatever that word may mean. I said that I knew of some people that stubbornly stuck with it. I never meant to suggest that everyone that stayed with XP were stubborn. And yes, there are other factors, like cost, that may prevent people/organizations from wanting to upgrade, but they were engaging in risky behavior. If an organization couldn't afford upgrading to at least Windows 7 by the time extended support ended for Windows XP, that was poor planning on their part. It's also poor planning and unreasonable expectations on an individual's part if they didn't expect to have to upgrade their PC/OS at any time.

MS is actually addressing this with Windows 10, with the "lifetime of the device" support. 
minidrag said:   As for XP embedded for ATMs, yes, some do protect themselves as you stated.  But don't kid yourself into thinking that all of them do.  There are lots of cheap ATMs out there that are very open to attack by simply gaining access to a USB port.  Many of the third party companies that put them out there just don't know a damn thing about security.
  
They know to keep the USB ports hidden. Seriously, ATM security in the US seems fine. Whenever you read about banks getting hacked, it's typically via an employee's desktop. 

minidrag said:   What?  Even back when upgrading to 10 was free there was still cost...
Windows XP and Vista machines were never eligible for the free Windows 10 upgrade. Only PCs running Windows 7 or 8.1 (Windows 8 users had to upgrade to 8.1 for free first).

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marsilies said:    
They know to keep the USB ports hidden. Seriously, ATM security in the US seems fine. Whenever you read about banks getting hacked, it's typically via an employee's desktop. 

 

  I would say that's arguable.  I certainly wasn't saying they were all horrible, but there are plenty out there that aren't very good.
A couple of examples: one, two

 

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marsilies said:   Windows XP and Vista machines were never eligible for the free Windows 10 upgrade. Only PCs running Windows 7 or 8.1 (Windows 8 users had to upgrade to 8.1 for free first).
 

  Perhaps I misread - I thought the person I was replying to was talking about going from 7 to 10, comparing that to people being stubborn back in the XP to 7 days.

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minidrag said:   
marsilies said:    
They know to keep the USB ports hidden. Seriously, ATM security in the US seems fine. Whenever you read about banks getting hacked, it's typically via an employee's desktop. 

 

  I would say that's arguable.  I certainly wasn't saying they were all horrible, but there are plenty out there that aren't very good.
A couple of examples: onetwo 

 

  Your examples:
One said: This particular hack – a ‘black box’ attack, requires physical access to the top of the cash machine, and involved removing the cash dispensing part from the core computer controlling the device. The thieves then simply need to attach their own core, and the computer can be instructed to dispense as many notes as requested by the cybercriminals
They're physically replacing the "core" of the machine, aka the motherboard, with another one. This is in no ways a Windows vulnerability. If a criminal can physically replace the hardware in the ATM, the most secure OS in the world isn't going to help.
Two said: Next, cut a piece from its chassis to expose its USB port....
Again, a physical alteration to the ATM, and one you already mentioned and I already addressed, i.e. the ATMs keep USB ports "hidden" in their casing, and not exposed. The ATM running arbitrary code loaded from a USB stick seems a problem, but that can be locked down in XP, so it's more a configuration problem.

Also, those two articles are from 2013, over 3 years ago. Also, different versions of XP Embedded were supported until 2016 or are still supported, so it's not a case of using an unsupported OS:
https://redmondmag.com/articles/2014/02/19/windows-xp-embedded-s...

  • "Windows XP Embedded Service Pack 3 (SP3). This is the original toolkit and componentized version of Windows XP. It was originally released in 2002, and Extended Support will end on Jan. 12, 2016."
  • "Windows Embedded for Point of Service SP3. This product is for use in Point of Sale devices. It's built from Windows XP Embedded. It was originally released in 2005, and Extended Support will end on April 12, 2016."
  • "Windows Embedded Standard 2009. This product is an updated release of the toolkit and componentized version of Windows XP. It was originally released in 2008; and Extended Support will end on Jan. 8, 2019."
  • "Windows Embedded POSReady 2009. This product for point-of-sale devices reflects the updates available in Windows Embedded Standard 2009. It was originally released in 2009, and extended support will end on April 9, 2019."

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OK, I'll stop. You keep talking about how these things can be fixed with updates, which is true. My point remains that many of them are not updated. Yes, they should be, I agree.

And yes, a configuration problem (lack of security) is what allows many of these things to work. Again, that was my point - many of these places don't know what they are doing and don't bother updating.

But, there's no point in going in circles here. You know these issues exist. It's your call whether to think they are still out in the wild or not.

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minidrag said:   But, there's no point in going in circles here. You know these issues exist. It's your call whether to think they are still out in the wild or not.
  
OK, I think one of us has lost the thread. I'll attempt to clarify.

My initial statements were entirely regarding Windows XP Home and Pro, the OS for desktops and laptops. Those should be upgraded immediately, as they are no longer being patched for known security flaws. There really aren't valid reasons for staying on it as a general purpose OS. People should be looking to replace their decade-old machines if they don't want to actually upgrade it, and "legacy software" uses should be separated out and locked down if running XP for them is still strictly necessary.

For ATMs, they predominately use Windows Embedded, so while people state they're running "XP," it's not the same XP as what desktops and laptops use. Windows XP Embedded ATMs could possibly be still getting security updates, due to the different extended support period MS gave that OS. Besides just updates those, the use case and configurations of the OS on ATMs is significantly different then that of a general-purpose PC, which can mitigate some risks. Of the two "hacks" of ATMs you linked to, both required physical access to locked away parts of the ATM hardware, and one required replacing a significant piece of ATM hardware. Neither hacks were really specific to an OS, let alone a specific version of the OS.

Should ATM manufacturers upgrade their OS? I'd prefer they did, especially before the Windows Embedded Standard 2009 support ends in 2019. But it's not on the same level of risk as those general purpose PCs used for web browsing, where they can be readily exposed to malware just via user actions.

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forbin4040 said:   http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/11/15241580/microsoft-windows-vis... 

Vista has been officially taken off support, and no one has noticed.  Haha

When XP was taken off, there was a huge row but the crapfest called Vista no one cares.

  I got a security update for XP just a few weeks ago.

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larrymoencurly said:   
forbin4040 said:   http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/11/15241580/microsoft-windows-vis... 

Vista has been officially taken off support, and no one has noticed.  Haha

When XP was taken off, there was a huge row but the crapfest called Vista no one cares.

  I got a security update for XP just a few weeks ago.

  Do you have the hack put in?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2310301/windows-xp-registry-hack-...
 

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B2B software that I work on is used by financial professionals still is showing XP machines in it's analytics.

Even worse, some of their servers are also still using an XP variant. I tried to limit our server to the latest TLS, but then their apps that connect to our API's wouldn't run. I've asked why, and unfortunately it requires quite a few code overhauls including sourcing new components... At this point, it should be a priority IMO.

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Windows XP is good but now I am using Windows 10 which is really best I think!
Thanks!

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